HELP !!!! How do people call this ????

[chrismystero]

Trapped:

Do you ever consider that u really actually werent outdrawn, and that u made the mistake of coming in preflop with two undercards to AK (not too mention how terribly u came in), and that although u may have connected on the flop, there are 2 more cards to come, and when hands were randomly generated to gives us our golden preflop odds that we value so much, the chances of winning a hand takes into account ALL 5 cards on the board, not just the 3 where u happened to be ahead at one point. this isnt a bad beat. Ak should usually beat two undercards.

also, a MTT isnt all about one hand obviously, i would assume, from the plays uve described above, u had already damaged ur table image earlier to these players, and they had no respect for u or ur style of play

[Trappped]

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you need to stop concentrating on your OPPONENTS play and look at your own.

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For the love of God, and for the last time, I got an opponent to call as a 3 to 1 underdog , getting about 1.2-1.3 to 1 pot odds, for about 75% of his stack, and you are criticizing this as a bad play ???
What do you consider a good play ?? Really.

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You are in a headsup freezeout. The blinds are 1/2. You and your opponent each have 1 million in chips. Your opponent says "if you go allin I will call with any pair, and fold anything else." You go allin with 33. He calls with 22 and you win. Good play?

And there is no justifying hand 1. Limping with 8 BB is so bad, but then calling half your stack in a raise. What if the flop comes 235? A74? Are you just folding? What if it's A74 with one diamond? Call for running diamonds? So very awful. It puts me on life tilt that someone like you has a 6 figure cash and still plays hands like this. F poker.

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Try reading the whole thread before you make accusations. I admitted the first hand was a bad play (because villian had great pot odds, and calling 800 more was only 7-8% of his stack) and only posted it to contrast the the second hand which is almost identical, BUT was played with a bigger "M"'s and nearly identical stack sizes, and almost even money pot odds.
Honestly, the more and more I think about this, the more and more I think its not only a good play, BUT a great play.
It seems like most of you would've called or at least entertained one. The next tourney I play, I'm shoving and overbetting the pot like hell when I flop the stone nuts. Hopefully, I'm sure one of you will call with underpair or AK high.

[Trappped]

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Trapped:

Do you ever consider that u really actually werent outdrawn, and that u made the mistake of coming in preflop with two undercards to AK (not too mention how terribly u came in), and that although u may have connected on the flop, there are 2 more cards to come, and when hands were randomly generated to gives us our golden preflop odds that we value so much, the chances of winning a hand takes into account ALL 5 cards on the board, not just the 3 where u happened to be ahead at one point. this isnt a bad beat. Ak should usually beat two undercards.

also, a MTT isnt all about one hand obviously, i would assume, from the plays uve described above, u had already damaged ur table image earlier to these players, and they had no respect for u or ur style of play

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So, let me understand this, your argument was that AK should beat JT, therefore, villians call was correct, no matter what flops or how the betting plays out??
That's like me saying that 66 is a preflop favorite over KQ, and if KKQ flops, I should call a reraise all-in if the limper pushes and hope to catch running 6's for quads. Which by the way, this actually happened to me once where I completed the SB and flopped a boat against the preflop BB raiser. I lead out (1st to act, sound familiar?) and was trying to portray buying the pot. Villian raised and I went all in, he calls with 66 and catches running 6's. WHat a great play by villian, huh ?

As far as your second comment, table had no read on me since I literally folded for an hour straight, was running card dead. They should've read me at the least, tight and waiting for a hand to make a move. But had you taken the time to read the thread, you've seen that.

[bookish]

Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[Trappped]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

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I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[LovinPoke]

you seem like a total dink!

[FortunaMaximus]

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Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

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Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

[Trappped]

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Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is too funny.
I counted 8 or 9 direct or indirect personal insults and then stopped counting.
Congratulations. I am honored by your presence if you think that a $100,000 + cash on an online tourney is insignificant.
On keeping with the subject how badly I played this hand, I'd like to bring up an example, believe it or not, where I played QJ suited the ""conventional way"" a few nights back in a FT $5/$10 NL ring game.
I bought in for the standard $400. Didn't play any pots aside of my blinds when it was cheap. Two orbits go by when I have QJ of spades in the BB with $375 left. Cutoff (has $1000 or so) makes it $45 to go, folds to me, and the hand was too pretty not to see a flop for $35 more. Flop comes 3d Qc 4d. I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove), pot is $95. Cutoff bets $80 (not pot) as I read as a contination bet. So I shove all in costing villian $250 more in a pot that is $255, plus my $250 to call. You guessed it, villian calls with AK high (non diamonds) and my hand holds up.
So I played this hand the conventional way, as many of you have tried to recommend, AND STILL got CALLED down with AK high. Go figure.

[El_Oso]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing both $3 and $163 tournies? You are either wasting your time in one, or hopelessly outclassed in the other.

I'd encourage you to remember than noone (well very few) at the high buyin games plays a hand in isolation. They remember your action before, will have been looking at the hands you play and how you have played them.

I'm guessing, but I suspect that your previous action was analysed so that villain in hand #2 put you on air. Are you thinking about the image villain has of you? You claim that you can bluff the straight. Virtually no-one will overbet with the nuts, unless it is a cunning double-bluff against a villain with previous history, so its virtually impossible for villain here to put you on that. Its possible this image was reinforced by you slow-playing some made hands earlier.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm playing the $3 tourney because I have 2 PC's running and 1st spot pays over $6000 (you would've known that if you read the original post, Starts $3 rebuy, take a look at it next time. Was the only other tourney running at the time paying a comparable payout to the Full Tilt one.)\
My table image in the second hand was tight. I was moved to it an hour earlier and folded EVERY hand until the one in question.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak-tight much?

I'll not do what other posters have done, which is use brute force to make you see how horribly bad your plays were.

They were. Surely you can think of better plays than that. If not, well, OK, then there are huge gaps in your game. Which will be very exploitable in the long run by a high-buyin MTT player, and even a good % of 3r players.

Did it occur to you, perhaps, in hand 2 that you could've value-bet this player instead? Fire flop for 800? This "I shoved and got called by a worse hand and he sucked out" results-oriented attitude and the hostility towards other posters is incorrect and will not get you the advice you're seeming to seek.

If you're here to brag about your insignificant result in a $200 buyin, congratulations, BBV will widen your [censored] while calling you a lucky tourney donk.

And they would be right. Bad players frequently go deep or win tournaments, and it is not because they're skilled. It's because tournaments are profitable consistently over a large volume for good, skilled players. But any random donk can win one, regardless of buyin, enough times to keep them all coming back for more.

If you're looking for advice and to learn, whether practically or theortically, you came to the right place, although like with a profusion of advice from varying skill levels, some is bad.

The advice you've gotten so far in this thread hasn't been bad. You've responded to it with results-oriented [censored].

So, can you think of a few better lines for playing hand #2 and extracting value instead of openshoving overpot, holdilng your nose and hoping he calls off his stack on a miracle? If you can't, you're in the wrong forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is too funny.
I counted 8 or 9 direct or indirect personal insults and then stopped counting.
Congratulations. I am honored by your presence if you think that a $100,000 + cash on an online tourney is insignificant.
On keeping with the subject how badly I played this hand, I'd like to bring up an example, believe it or not, where I played QJ suited the ""conventional way"" a few nights back in a FT $5/$10 NL ring game.
I bought in for the standard $400. Didn't play any pots aside of my blinds when it was cheap. Two orbits go by when I have QJ of spades in the BB with $375 left. Cutoff (has $1000 or so) makes it $45 to go, folds to me, and the hand was too pretty not to see a flop for $35 more. Flop comes 3d Qc 4d. I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove), pot is $95. Cutoff bets $80 (not pot) as I read as a contination bet. So I shove all in costing villian $250 more in a pot that is $255, plus my $250 to call. You guessed it, villian calls with AK high (non diamonds) and my hand holds up.
So I played this hand the conventional way, as many of you have tried to recommend, AND STILL got CALLED down with AK high. Go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just figured it out - the conventional way to play QJ UTG with 8BB left in a MTT is to buy into a cash game. Now I see the genius of the OP.

[bookish]

Well *I* didn't insult you. Not my style.

You should separate criticism of your poker plays, from personal attacks. If I post a hand here, I expect my play to be criticised. Thats why I post it here. I think about the points raised and try and decide whether they are valid, and hopefully improve my game. If I don't listen I will never learn.

I'm struck by your comment that 'I check top pair (instead of lead out, hopefully you all aprove)'. That is the point I was making - that if you routinely do this (which I don't suggest BTW) then when you do make a big bet people can't put you on a made hand.

Oh, and the subject should really be 'Help - how can I get people to keep calling like this ???'