Pf confusion

[BadMongo]

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Did you read my post?

If you did, you'd see that I didn't assume anything.


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Are we playing semantics now? Lame. But oh well:

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Let's assume in this case that he calls a push with QQ+

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What I meant was that I'm not assuming anything about this particular villain's range. That's not semantics.

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You gave two separate ranges, or as I call them, "assumptions." You can't make EV calcs without them. I don't think either range is realistic in either case. You can make an argument for folding KK if a villain will only push with AA, but we don't do that because it's not realistic to assume that.

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Are you telling me there are no villains who 3-bet only AA, KK, QQ, AK? If so, LOL. There are PLENTY of SSNL player who's 3-bet range is exactly this. For my example to be invalid you would have to show that the range I gave does not describe ANY player.

I don't really understand your criticisms of the second range I gave. There are plenty of players IME who play very similar to this.

In any case, the point of my post was to demonstrate that folding, calling, and pushing can all be correct under the right circumstances, not to bicker endlessly about what the villain's range is. It's impossible to know with the information provided.

Free free to do your own EV calcs with ranges you deem to be "acceptable".

[Mercman572]

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Are you telling me there are no villains who 3-bet only AA, KK, QQ, AK? If so, LOL. There are PLENTY of SSNL player who's 3-bet range is exactly this. For my example to be invalid you would have to show that the range I gave does not describe ANY player.

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Seriously, chill with the contention and the attitude. The best way to illustrate a point using EV calcs is to pick the best set of assumptions. To do this, you don't want to find a set of assumptions that descrbe SOME player, or even just a few, you want the most applicable assumption for the situation.

First of all, this is 2/4, which plays significantly different than SSNL. While your assumptions may be applicable to some players at SSNL, I don't think it fits with the described player; a 2/4 player that OP described as "seemingly aggressive" (excuse the paraphrasing).

This is because I expect the opening range to include some weak PP's and sometimes SC's, at least some of the time. As for a calling range, I really can't put him on one.

This is why I won't be providing EV calcs; it is damn near impossible to find a realistic range.

[Melchiades]

I don't get why people hate calling so much.

[BadMongo]

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Seriously, chill with the contention and the attitude. The best way to illustrate a point using EV calcs is to pick the best set of assumptions. To do this, you don't want to find a set of assumptions that descrbe SOME player, or even just a few, you want the most applicable assumption for the situation.

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Sorry if I sounded bitchy. But to say that my ranges are "not realistic at all" is ridiculous.

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First of all, this is 2/4, which plays significantly different than SSNL. While your assumptions may be applicable to some players at SSNL, I don't think it fits with the described player; a 2/4 player that OP described as "seemingly aggressive" (excuse the paraphrasing).

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I realize that this is a hand from 2/4, but we're in the SSNL formum, no? The OP specifically said 2/4 is not his regular game, and wanted advice on what to do for a situation like this in general. I agree that the ranges I gave are probably not applicable to most 2/4 players, but they are applicable to many .5/1 or even 1/2 players. The majority of SSNL players are not 3-betting 87s OOP.

The point of my post was not give the OP advice on what to do in this specific situation. The point was to help him analyze the situation in general, in the SSNL setting. No doubt he's going to get lots of replies saying "push" with no explaination as to why this is usually the best play. But pushing as a standard line here is very bad at .5/1 and below. You're going to have problems when you 4-bet AK into a guy with a PFR of 4, for example.

[PBJaxx]

Mongo,

FWIW, I liked your post. You certainly were not attempting to assign a range to a "general" set of opponents anywhere. You did, however, make it very clear as to difference in the +EV of pushing based upon two different types of villains. I found it very informative.

[BadMongo]

Thanks, that's what I was shooting for.

[Grunch]

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I don't get why people hate calling so much.

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Truthfully I think its mostly due to the culture here.