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#31
12-03-2006, 01:36 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP.
If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you. 
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#32
12-03-2006, 01:38 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again. ok my question: I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops. There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour. The minimum wage is $6 per hour. Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss. [/ QUOTE ]3 things. We should deprecate the use of the penny. You should depend on private charity for your 50 bucks an hour. Private charities are better than lack of government programs to assist starving capitalists. What if it wasn't a minimum wage law that prevented profitability for your product. But a safety regulation imposed by a business bureau. Do you demand the right to be listed favoraibly in the business bureau's directory? By owning 50 arces of land in the desert you agreed to terms of the nation containing the land. This voluntary transaction is the cause of your delema. You assumed the risk that the venture of penny extraction would be profitable when you purchased the land. You should not be able to pass the lose for your slight miscalculation on to the employee. Bad business decisions should be paid for by the capitalist. after all that is the only reason why I can see the capitalist deserving any money. It's the assumption of risk. I do believe you should be able to get the goverment to subsidize the extra cash needed for your business to meet the minimum wage requirements. [/ QUOTE ] Assume that he acquired the land when the min wage was $4.50. When the gov't raised the min wage to 6.00 (by tacking it onto the Port Security bill?) it effectively took $1million from him (his anticipated profit on the $10M in pennies). It also took $9M in wages out of the economy.
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#34
12-03-2006, 01:43 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
If the OP is paying the workers $4.50 no matter what he is paying them, if the workers have to pay the OP $0.5 no matter what its the other way around.
However on the specific case on penny picking we all know which alternative is more profitable.
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#35
12-03-2006, 01:44 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP. If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you. [/ QUOTE ] It's not easy to get around the problem by treating the laborers as independent contractors. The gov't will say that they are, in fact, employees and charge him back payroll taxes (and some hefty penalties and interest).
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#36
12-03-2006, 02:01 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] pvn, the guys picking the pennies are paying the OP. If I own an office, and I rent it to you. You are paying me not the other way around. Even though you are making money on my office( because ure a lawyer or something) I still dont see how Im paying you. [/ QUOTE ] It's not easy to get around the problem by treating the laborers as independent contractors. The gov't will say that they are, in fact, employees and charge him back payroll taxes (and some hefty penalties and interest). [/ QUOTE ] In my industry-the construction industry-the government makes zero effort to enforce the rules when it comes to sub-contractors vs employees. Even if they did enforce it all the op would have to do is show that the people picking pennies had the ability to work for anyone. Since this would be a limited time project that wouldn't be difficult.
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#37
12-03-2006, 02:19 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again. ok my question: I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops. There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour. The minimum wage is $6 per hour. Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss. [/ QUOTE ]3 things. We should deprecate the use of the penny. You should depend on private charity for your 50 bucks an hour. Private charities are better than lack of government programs to assist starving capitalists. What if it wasn't a minimum wage law that prevented profitability for your product. But a safety regulation imposed by a business bureau. Do you demand the right to be listed favoraibly in the business bureau's directory? By owning 50 arces of land in the desert you agreed to terms of the nation containing the land. This voluntary transaction is the cause of your delema. You assumed the risk that the venture of penny extraction would be profitable when you purchased the land. You should not be able to pass the lose for your slight miscalculation on to the employee. Bad business decisions should be paid for by the capitalist. after all that is the only reason why I can see the capitalist deserving any money. It's the assumption of risk. I do believe you should be able to get the goverment to subsidize the extra cash needed for your business to meet the minimum wage requirements. [/ QUOTE ] Assume that he acquired the land when the min wage was $4.50. When the gov't raised the min wage to 6.00 (by tacking it onto the Port Security bill?) it effectively took $1million from him (his anticipated profit on the $10M in pennies). It also took $9M in wages out of the economy. [/ QUOTE ]Basically, but how much extra consumerism does a minimum wage law put in the economy? It's a tricky calculation. In order for me to be consistant, I must believe a couple of things. Minimum wage workers are unable to negotiate a "fair" market value for thier labor in a "free" market. The minimum wage is set at a fair market value. An EIC or a maximum wage law is not feasible. Both would do better than a minimum wage. Any of those being different and the minimum wage harms the economy. If you find minimum wage laws bad for the economy what about maximum wage laws? Those would be good right. Like a max buy in NL table. As far as the government changing the mw law. He should have anticipated cost of living increases and inflation into his calculations. I'm concerend with just how much money I need to spend in terms of crime prevention and social programs when people that are working can't afford the first 2 of maslow's needs. It's hard to anticipate what a turned down worker will do if his job is downsized becuase of minimum wage laws.
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#38
12-03-2006, 03:22 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
Minimum wage workers are unable to negotiate a "fair" market value for thier labor in a "free" market. [/ QUOTE ] I think that this is a big part of whether minimum wage laws have merit or not. Propertarian stated sometime ago that most minimum wage workers add $20/hour of value to the businesses they work for. And even if not, in a lot of cases the cost will be shifted to the consumer (which I think most minimum wage advocates don't have a problem with, in fact I think that most people that advocate a miniumu wage would prefer earned income tax credits to those that need it than a raise in the minimum wage, which affects to a large part young people that don't reaaly need it, but see a minmum wage incrase as a second best alternative). So I think that most proponents of minimum wage laws would have no problems with the letting workers work for OP if the situation was what was actually happening (i.e. lots of jobless people that want to work but can't get a job because businesses don't want to hire them for the minimum wage). There are 15 states or so that currently have higher minimum wages than the federal wage, to my knowledge there has been no study showing that this has had an adverse effect.
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#39
12-03-2006, 08:03 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for another thread, delete if you want... I'm bored of seeing the same arguments rehashed over and over again. ok my question: I have 50 acres of land in the middle of the desert. I cannot build on the land as it is too unstable and there is no value in planting crops. There are billions of pennies hidden throughout my land. The fastest and most economically efficient method of retrieving these pennies is by hand. One person can retrieve 500 pennies per hour. The minimum wage is $6 per hour. Many people have come to me looking for work. Should I be able to hire these people who want to work for me? I cannot afford to operate at a loss. [/ QUOTE ] Mickey gave the right answer. There is no law preventing you from hiring these people. If you can't afford to fully exploit your land without breaking the law then too bad. If you can't afford to exploit your land at all because the only way to get anything valuable out of it is to break the law then you suck at real estate investing and/or capitalism.
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#40
12-03-2006, 11:14 AM
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Re: Question for Minimum Wagers
that penny picking job is BAD for the economy, even assuming the pennies are a real good like produce.
it is bad for this reason...there are TONS of other jobs that are available that would profit by hiring an extra person at more than 5 dollars an hour. most low paid employees could be paid significantly more and the company would still be profitable. and if it isn't worth hiring people to pick produce at 5 dollars an hour, then it is obvious that consumers don't really want that produce. but companies would be profitable selling less produce at a higher price to the consumers willing to spend the dough, but of course that means less employment. and until the minimum wage law has a significant impact on employment in the aggregate, it is a GOOD thing for society, because it maximize the utility of labor.
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