1/2 Stars QQ, deep, interesting - Page 4

Rotterdaum · #31 12-02-2006, 03:29 PM

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I really wish you and everybody else who thinks this way would let got of this magical idea of betting for [censored] INFO. That is not a good reason to bet. Our goal here as with every hand is to maximize our expectation. Checking and many flops in position after the preflop action really helps accomplish that very idea.

This is why. Betting the flop will often times fold out hands like 77-99 that were only playing for set value but will now give action on many turns through bluffs or calls. If we check,bBig suited cards like AQ/KQ/AK may now lead blank turns which is an easy call for us and makes us money from those hands when we might not have. Checking the flop also helps disguise our hand which leads to FTOP mistakes which is always a good thing.

This is not to say that betting the flop is not a +EV move, but the bottomline is that checking is likely much more +EV. We all need to avoid playing hands the easy way.

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Very much agreed

Riina · #32 12-02-2006, 03:33 PM

Ty for responding.

However, i think your are just shedding your light on all good that can come from checking, not the bad stuff. Like i previously stated, i think its pretty close since when fiddling around in the dark queens are probably a lot harder to get away from when beat than your opponent will have to figure out when his hand is beat by queens. Of course the latter will occur more often but bring less money in, and the first occur less but will cost you on average more. Hard to set the line, but in this case the real danger of overcards that can come out make me sway in betting to protect.

This is not the traditional 'betting for info' play. I agree with most critiques i see on that subject, a bet on this flop is so much more than just that.

ps. as a varietyplay i dont mind this line of course, but thats different

ps2. i dont know if there is much left to say on the matter, we have different stands and until i can see some hard data i dont think i or you will sway on this subject [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] .If u or anyone likes to chime in further i appreciate though as i find it interesting since i feel im a minority on this and am really really surprised about that so enlighten me please [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

tomek322 · #33 12-02-2006, 03:34 PM

I bet the flop. If you get check raised there, you can three bet and fold to a push.

He might be really sneek and just called with AA or KK.

But as played call the river. I think we are good more that 30% of the time.
[Edit] So you checked the flop to induce bets from hands that beat AK and such? Got the bets and folded on the river. So what did you put him on? a set or the flush or str8?

Big_Jim · #34 12-02-2006, 03:38 PM

I bet the flop the vast majority of the time, but checking is good too. Depends a lot on what you think he'd do with a middle pair.

Turn looks good.

River is a [censored] card, so I would fold, but I would instacall on a blank.

Rotterdaum · #35 12-02-2006, 03:39 PM

I think bet/3bet/folding the flop and just CBing the flop are both higher variance plays and they don't give you more control of the hand or anything.

Don't you think in a reraised pot, villain should fold just about everything to a CB? He's out of position, picture yourself in his situation. What hands will you give me action with, knowing there are 2 more streets to come. That I will check behind twice should be quite a stretch in his mind.

He's either going to give up almost every hand I beat here, or play them in a way I don't expect him too (because I expect him to give them up) making him hard to read.

If that doesn't convince you, consider this just a mix-up play. I'm sure there isn't much less EV in it, if any less at all.

ejay · #36 12-02-2006, 04:02 PM

this may seem weak, but i might even fold the turn. This is a big raise form a player that the Op considers solid, is there really that big of a chance that he has 77-JJ often enough. When calling the turn we have to consider that the fact that we will be facing a big river bet fairly often, so i would lean towards the turn fold...

Rotterdaum · #37 12-02-2006, 04:06 PM

I do think folding turn is weak given that flop is as played. Marginal, but I think weak.

Btw, here's a hand against the same villain, on the same table, somewhat related. I thought it was pretty interesting too(but less so than the first one), so why not add to this topic...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($1008.30)
MP ($264.45)
Hero ($602.30)
Button ($153.90)
SB ($257.60)
BB ($167)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $26, 3 folds, UTG calls $20.

Flop: ($55) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $34, UTG calls $34.

Turn: ($123) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $80, UTG calls $80.

River: ($283) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $140

tomek322 · #38 12-02-2006, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do think folding turn is weak given that flop is as played. Marginal, but I think weak.

Btw, here's a hand against the same villain, on the same table, somewhat related. I thought it was pretty interesting too(but less so than the first one), so why not add to this topic...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($1008.30)
MP ($264.45)
Hero ($602.30)
Button ($153.90)
SB ($257.60)
BB ($167)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $26, 3 folds, UTG calls $20.

Flop: ($55) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $34, UTG calls $34.

Turn: ($123) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $80, UTG calls $80.

River: ($283) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $140

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I'm actually more infavor of folding this hand. We played our hand face up and he says he has it beat. I think he has 66 or the flush.

Did this guy ever four bet you PF? Have you seen any of his holdings?

samsonite2100 · #39 12-02-2006, 04:24 PM

Checking flops and decrying the hand definition and yes, I'll say it, extra info you get from betting has become a little too trendy around here lately. I don't think checking this flop is bad, but neither is betting it.

BDaws · #40 12-02-2006, 04:31 PM

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Checking flop is good, and u guys should do it with almost any hand that u 3beted pf with.

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I'll agree that it is good sometimes, but that's retarded to do it 100% of the time when we 3bet pf.