Live tourny about 4hrs. ago

[locutus2002]

Hero raises to T4000. You have to pop him on the flop.

This player is not going to come over the top without the best hand. If you just call, and he bets the turn you will have to call and be committed to the hand without ever knowing where you are at.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero raises to T4000. You have to pop him on the flop.

This player is not going to come over the top without the best hand. If you just call, and he bets the turn you will have to call and be committed to the hand without ever knowing where you are at.

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Raising to 4K is a reasonable way to play it, but I am not folding AA period with these stack sizes, this board, and late position action. I may or may not get all the money in on the flop or turn, but I am not folding aces here at any point in this hand.

The only hands that are ahead of you or KQ, 44, KK, and QQ. Now I am pushing with all of these against a late position raise from a loose big stack. It is particularly unlikely he would flat call with QQ. It is certainly possible that villain flat called with a hand that is ahead of AA, but not particularly likely.

Leading into the raiser is a standard play with 2-pair or a set. However, he could also have a K or Q and want to see where he stands. It could be a bluff, hoping hero has a pp or ace and missed the flop.

Hero panicked playing a hand against the other big stack.

[jlocdog]

First off.....hero did not panic. Not even close. Hero was completely in control of the table, the chips, and his reads. I just wanted to see how many people were adamant about going to the felt with this hand. I recently wrote a post about getting attached and then this hand comes up. Very ironic. In my post I said you need to go with your reads and make your decisions. Sometimes your wrong, but to be successful (atleast live) you need to depend on them.

For the hand: Flop comes K Q 4. SB bets 1500. I found it very unusual of him to bet into me. With a hand as strong as KK,QQ I have already said I figured he would reraise preflop. 44's is interesting and worthy of a preflop call but I think that hand is SO sneaky that he would let me keep the lead (with two big cards in the broadway zone). So I deduced that he had a K with either a T,J,Q,A. Since there was a Q out there, I decided to flat call and see if he has the stones to follow through with a turn bet. This part of the hand is debateable as I know some will say "raise and see where your at". But with me being confident with my read and staring right at him instead of his name on a computer screen, I don't feel as though I'll get any more information out of him by betting/raising then I would by observing and calculating his moves in position. Plus if the turn comes blank (A-9) then yes I go to the felt automatically with this hand.

The turn comes a T. Not a good card for me. Now literally any of the combiations that I put him on are now hitting pretty hard. From a set (TT) to two pair (KQ,KT,QTs) to a straight (AJ). He glances at me as the turn peels off and then goes to his stack and bets 5000 (into a 7000 pot). I think for a moment and dump.

I lose 3100 on the hand. I proceed to pick up pots from the rest of the table and get my stack back up to where it was before the aces confrontation and then some within one orbit.

He told me after the final table (I finished 6 ironically when my AA gets cracked by J8o) that he had KQ and didn't expect me to have such a strong hand. He was value betting his hand.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
First off.....hero did not panic. Not even close. Hero was completely in control of the table, the chips, and his reads. I just wanted to see how many people were adamant about going to the felt with this hand. I recently wrote a post about getting attached and then this hand comes up. Very ironic. In my post I said you need to go with your reads and make your decisions. Sometimes your wrong, but to be successful (atleast live) you need to depend on them.

For the hand: Flop comes K Q 4. SB bets 1500. I found it very unusual of him to bet into me. With a hand as strong as KK,QQ I have already said I figured he would reraise preflop. 44's is interesting and worthy of a preflop call but I think that hand is SO sneaky that he would let me keep the lead (with two big cards in the broadway zone). So I deduced that he had a K with either a T,J,Q,A. Since there was a Q out there, I decided to flat call and see if he has the stones to follow through with a turn bet. This part of the hand is debateable as I know some will say "raise and see where your at". But with me being confident with my read and staring right at him instead of his name on a computer screen, I don't feel as though I'll get any more information out of him by betting/raising then I would by observing and calculating his moves in position. Plus if the turn comes blank (A-9) then yes I go to the felt automatically with this hand.

The turn comes a T. Not a good card for me. Now literally any of the combiations that I put him on are now hitting pretty hard. From a set (TT) to two pair (KQ,KT,QTs) to a straight (AJ). He glances at me as the turn peels off and then goes to his stack and bets 5000 (into a 7000 pot). I think for a moment and dump.

I lose 3100 on the hand. I proceed to pick up pots from the rest of the table and get my stack back up to where it was before the aces confrontation and then some within one orbit.

He told me after the final table (I finished 6 ironically when my AA gets cracked by J8o) that he had KQ and didn't expect me to have such a strong hand. He was value betting his hand.

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http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1502270
pokenum -h ad ah - ks qc -- kh qs 4d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Qs 4d Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 268 27.07 722 72.93 0 0.00 0.271
Ks Qc 722 72.93 268 27.07 0 0.00 0.729

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1502286
pokenum -h ad ah - ks qc -- kh qs 4d tc
Holdem Hi: 44 enumerated boards containing Qs Tc 4d Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Ah 12 27.27 32 72.73 0 0.00 0.273
Ks Qc 32 72.73 12 27.27 0 0.00 0.727

You are 27% against KQ on the flop and on the turn.

All the more reason to raise the flop. If he has Kx, you don't want to let him draw cheaply. If he has KQ, he doubles up unless you draw out.

[jlocdog]

You're right. All the numbers add up to me raising the flop. I think as a general rule this is the right play to make. But I had a feeling that he hit his two pair and there is something to be said about going with your read. I just felt that he wouldn't bet into me with anything less than twopair here. The only other possibility is AK. So if he had AK then I made a mistake. But with me having two of the aces, it seemed less likely that he held one.

One Possibility might be if I raise the flop knowing that he has two pair. He might just call and look for a check raise on the turn thinking that I will keep the lead. Then when the 10 hits, I check behind. Now any 4,10,J,or A wins (12 outs) and I get to see the hand through. This way of playing the hand would cost me about 4000 on the flop ( I have to be careful how much I raise here because it just might be enough for him to justify pushing right there). So in essence, I saved 2500 on the hand but lost the possibility to see it through. Now I just need to figure out the % that he would do that exact call raise/check (with intention of raising turn) combo.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right. All the numbers add up to me raising the flop. I think as a general rule this is the right play to make. But I had a feeling that he hit his two pair and there is something to be said about going with your read. I just felt that he wouldn't bet into me with anything less than twopair here. The only other possibility is AK. So if he had AK then I made a mistake. But with me having two of the aces, it seemed less likely that he held one.

One Possibility might be if I raise the flop knowing that he has two pair. He might just call and look for a check raise on the turn thinking that I will keep the lead. Then when the 10 hits, I check behind. Now any 4,10,J,or A wins (12 outs) and I get to see the hand through. This way of playing the hand would cost me about 4000 on the flop ( I have to be careful how much I raise here because it just might be enough for him to justify pushing right there). So in essence, I saved 2500 on the hand but lost the possibility to see it through. Now I just need to figure out the % that he would do that exact call raise/check (with intention of raising turn) combo.

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If your read was he had 2-pair, you may have played it right, assuming he told you the truth he had KQ. The problem is that KQ and 44 are pretty much the only hands he could have that beat you. AK is real unlikely, as no one flat calls a CO raise with AK.

Since you have outs against KQ (and KT on the turn), I would just go with my overpair and hope I am ahead or can draw out. However, I can't really argue if you had a strong read, which was apparently correct.

[h20man65]

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[ QUOTE ]
You're right. All the numbers add up to me raising the flop. I think as a general rule this is the right play to make. But I had a feeling that he hit his two pair and there is something to be said about going with your read. I just felt that he wouldn't bet into me with anything less than twopair here. The only other possibility is AK. So if he had AK then I made a mistake. But with me having two of the aces, it seemed less likely that he held one.

One Possibility might be if I raise the flop knowing that he has two pair. He might just call and look for a check raise on the turn thinking that I will keep the lead. Then when the 10 hits, I check behind. Now any 4,10,J,or A wins (12 outs) and I get to see the hand through. This way of playing the hand would cost me about 4000 on the flop ( I have to be careful how much I raise here because it just might be enough for him to justify pushing right there). So in essence, I saved 2500 on the hand but lost the possibility to see it through. Now I just need to figure out the % that he would do that exact call raise/check (with intention of raising turn) combo.

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If your read was he had 2-pair, you may have played it right, assuming he told you the truth he had KQ. The problem is that KQ and 44 are pretty much the only hands he could have that beat you. AK is real unlikely, as no one flat calls a CO raise with AK.

Since you have outs against KQ (and KT on the turn), I would just go with my overpair and hope I am ahead or can draw out. However, I can't really argue if you had a strong read, which was apparently correct.

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There-in lies the beauty of live play in a B&M room. Nice read, you cannot quantify the value of such info. Nice job.

[locutus2002]

It's a great hand, and really illustrates the difference between live and online play.

Great read!

[Proofrock]

[ QUOTE ]
Now I am in the CO and it is folded to me. I look down and find two red aces. Very sweet. I decide to raise to 1600. I do this because I am trying to represent a steal and a bully. My raises though quite frequent have been garnering alot of respect (from all the good hands I've shown) and I felt that this hand was too strong to just take the blinds.

Read on SB....I have played with this guy many times before. Both in tournaments, and in cash games ranging from 3-6 to 15-30 to the 2/5 no limit they spread. I am very familiar with his play and I have to assume he knows me a little. He is very tight. Doesn't get out of line ever. Plays his good hands strong. Lays down marginals (A9,QJ,etc..)and won't bluff into a raise. Oh and by the way, he has about 11000 so he is other CL at table. Only guy that can hurt me.

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I've been thinking a bit about this hand and this post, because things just don't quite feel right here. I don't really have a coherent response, but let me do my best to articulate my impressions reading this.

You want to represent yourself as being a bully, and you just won the last hand with kings. How many other times so far / recently in this tournament have you minraised from late position? Though I don't really like a minraise, if this is typical for you and you've been "dominating the table" as you stated in your original post, then I can see why you would do it with a big hand here. However, I don't like your reasoning. You always *want* to win more than just the blinds with any hand you're dealt, especially AA, but that doesn't mean you slowplay them or minraise with them to get one extra bet out, especially when gaining that extra t800 may very well cost you much more than you stand to win. If you are really trying to represent a steal, then bet what you would with a steal -- i'd have a hard time betting less than t2000 here, especially with the blinds so large relative to the effective stack sizes. Besides, such a bet comes closer to being cEV neutral if you end up getting sucked out on and paying with your stack anyway (i.e., it makes it hard / impossible for you to really make a mistake).

Given this player in the SB, whom you know to be tight, the minraise shouldn't be targetted at him. Since you have such a complete and expert read on him (tight, doesn't bluff ever into a raiser, folds marginal hands), then now is not the time he is going to put 15% of his stack in preflop with very many hands that he wouldn't put more/all of his stack in. BB has only t3000 chips, so i can only assume he's either playing for them all this hand or folding to any raise -- i.e., I'm not sure who you are trying to induce to put more chips in and how this is a more effective way of doing it than making a more typical raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Back to the hand. He thinks for a moment and just calls. BB folds. Right away I rule out AA(cause I got em),KK,QQ,and AK. I believe he would reraise with these hands. Remember he bets his strong hands. I have shown strength with my raise and he wouldn't slowplay here with a big hand. Just by calling my raise (mini as it may be) he has to have one of the following I think. PP (less than QQ), AQ,AJ,KQ,KJs,KTs (pushing it),QTs (really pushing it).

Flop comes K Q 4 rainbow. (pot is 4000 for math impaired) He bets 1500 into me! What to do?

If raise, how much? If call or called and turn is T! Now what? What if he continues to bet into you? Fold? Call? Allin?...

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From this point on, I'm not sure why, or if, you're asking for advice. Your line is completely read-based, and you have conveniently narrowed his range to one that is ahead of your hand. Though I know stronger reads are more common in live play than in online play (this is one of the reasons I prefer live play myself), it seems a little hard to believe that this player is so readable-tight that you know from his probe bet that he must have KQ or 44 (maybe an unlikely KJ or KT, but he dumps such marginal hands, right?). But if he figures you for a steal, what is the point in leading out with such hands? They aren't likely to be drawn out against, and I assume that you've been making enough continuation bets that he figures he could win more from a weak hand and the same amount from a strong hand with a check-raise.

But fine ... so you have your read, and you figure he either has TPGK or two-pair plus. Here is a situation where you don't really want to fold yet, but you'd like to quickly find out if you're good (if it's possible to do so with an effective stack of about t9600 and a pot of t3600). So -- given your read, if he has TPGK, does he typically shut down on the turn, or keep firing if you call behind? If you raise, does he call/fold/push this hand, and what do you expect him to do if he has two pair or a set? If he is as predictable as you make him out to be, you should be able to use this information to decide how to play the hand. But again, so much of your statement of the situation and your reasoning for even considering folding this hand is read-dependent, I don't know what more of a response you are looking for. Imagine how he would play each of the hands in his range vs. each of your possible actions, then choose which one will win the most when you're ahead and/or lose the least when you're behind.

The main options I see are (assuming if he puts any more money into the pot it means he has KQ+):
raise to t3400 (i know it's a tiny raise), and check-fold unless you improve.
call and fold the turn unimproved (i.e., no 4,A) if he bets, bet if he checks to you.

If, on the other hand, you assume he's not so perfectly readable as you have led us to believe (i.e., against most opponents), I would raise to about half his remaing stack, and put the rest in as soon as possible.

FWIW, I can think of exactly one player I've played with recently in a live tournament where I would muck on the flop without hesitation, but hundreds whom I would beat into the pot with my chips.

[ QUOTE ]
Please help break this puzzle.

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I take some issue with the way you've presented this hand for consideration, but in short I'm not sure you really consider it a puzzle to be broken -- the impression I get is that you consider it a great laydown that you made (though really, you helped get yourself into the situation with a suspect minraise preflop) in a tournament where you had been "dominating," and in which you could have crippled yourself by getting overcommitted with a strong hand, but instead laid it down when you knew you were behind. You presented the hand in a leading way from the beginning to heavily skew his hand range and action to KQ / 44, and also gave us the results that you didn't get to a showdown, none of which is helpful for providing an unbiased analysis of the hand / formulating a plan.

[betgo]

Yeh, as I said, I think you just have to put your money in with AA. It is almost certain you are ahead. If villain acutally had KQ, it was a great read to put villain on one of the two hands he could reasonably have that were ahead. However, my feeling was the laydown was more prompted by fear of going allin against the other big stack.