I dont know how to play mid pairs

[kitaristi0]

Check/minraise the flop is kinda sexy. For value obviously.

The only bad thing about check/fold on that turn is that it's such a good double barrelling card but meh, watchagonnadoaboutit.

[sdfsdf]

maybe you only beat a bluff with TT, but you dont want to catch bluffs with low PPs because they likely have overcard outs

[Dan Bitel]

still pretty hungover, so maybe I'll chime in a bit more tomorrow or later today, but

[ QUOTE ]
What does "Personally, I think that rr TT OOP is a fine play as long as you can get to showdown with it a lot, as then you are actually "seeing" the value you gain by rr preflop."
Even mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

what that means is that if you see a showdown with TT in a rr pot UI 0% of the time, then it is essentially a bluff. The value of the cards mean nothing (except that you can flop a set 1 in 8 times). Un fact, its not just about getting to sohwdown, we have to get to showdown, UI AND WIN over 0% of the time, or our hand is a bluff.

Now my problem is that whenI rr TT preflop (especially OOP) I get to showdown UI and win just about never. If you are some1 who CAN get to showdown and win UI often, then rr is ofc fine, but thats just not me (and I suspect not a lot of players here either)

FWIW, I'm not playing TT for set value, I'll continue most the time even when it hasnt flopped a set and I'm not just rr JJ+/AK. I'd a lot rather reraise a hand like 67s that has a lot less showdown value.


Hince,

[ QUOTE ]
It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but we don't know his exact range of hands. Obv we are ahead of his range, but just because you are ahead of some1s range, doesn't mean raising is best and in fact if you are only slightly ahead of some1s range, it could be that raising is -EV

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply not true. Should I open shove TT preflop? I'm way ahead of everyone's range. Of course I'm not ahead of their calling range and it's -EV. There are also plenty of cases where I can raise a hand like that which is ahead of their range but will only get called by better hands. That's what we call "turning your hand into a bluff". Furthermore, the "showdown value" of a hand does not matter if you can't get to showdown, and there are often cases where you believe you are ahead of someone's range but still folding is the most +EV decision. (an example might be if you have something like 88 on a 7-high flop with flush draw, you bet out and villain min raises in position. You're ahead of his range but should probably just fold).

I agree with Tickner that reraising TT preflop you're basically turning your hand into 22 (it's a semibluff, you'd love to hit a set), but TT has the added bonus that you just might be able to get to showdown and win UI if your villain does something wierd and lets you.

[wslee00]

hm - this is an interesting discussion. I tend to rr pf w/ TT if everyone folds and there is a CO or button raise. I was just going to type out a bunch of my reasons for doing so, but a hand like 23o would also qualify w/ those reasons... hmm - maybe I should just start rr'ing 23o OOP whenever I would rr w/ TT OOP and see how that pans out.

I'm still not fully convinced to not rr TT pf OOP, but I really haven't seen a good argument FOR re-raising TT OOP.

I think rr'ing TT OOP becomes profitable only when you start raising in that spot w/ even lesser hands for meta-game purposes, however, saying that, I don't know how profitable that will be at SSNL.

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
... but TT has the added bonus that you just might be able to get to showdown and win UI if your villain does something wierd and lets you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but also keep in mind that if we let villian push us off our hand too often when we are ahead, then it's a very big mistake. A lot of people make this mistake, because its so hard to determine if you are ahead or not. In time, you learn how to use your judgement to figure out the times you should goto showdown and the times you shouldn't and its way too hard for me to explain here.

I suppose if you dont play TT well post flop, calling preflop instead of RR'ing might be a better option.

[Hince]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is simply not true. Should I open shove TT preflop? I'm way ahead of everyone's range. Of course I'm not ahead of their calling range and it's -EV. There are also plenty of cases where I can raise a hand like that which is ahead of their range but will only get called by better hands. That's what we call "turning your hand into a bluff". Furthermore, the "showdown value" of a hand does not matter if you can't get to showdown, and there are often cases where you believe you are ahead of someone's range but still folding is the most +EV decision. (an example might be if you have something like 88 on a 7-high flop with flush draw, you bet out and villain min raises in position. You're ahead of his range but should probably just fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I say anything about being ahead of his range? No.. I don't think I did... I said we had the best hand. My quote is always true.

If he plays his hand face up, and you are ahead. Pushing is +EV (although it may not be the most +EV play).

Since he isn't playing his hand face up we put him on a range of hands. If we are ahead of that range it makes sense to raise an amount that will get called by lesser hands. We want to maximize our return, so when ahead we should be more willing to put in more money.

We win more money if we push our edges, and maximize our chances of winning a pot. Reraise preflop does that in both ways.

[tannenj]

interesting thread. killian, you still haven't responded with lines that will get you to showdown (and win often enough to be +EV) after repopping TT oop. your previous responses, in my opinion, have been copouts.

all,

do you repop it in position?

cbloom,

there's a pretty similar discussion here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

i think you are dead on when you say that there's value in 3betting with TT in tougher, more aggressive games, but not really at 200 nl. i play in a home game with some other 2+2ers. we're all pretty much screwing around and playing looser than normal, but the quality of play is overall a lot higher than the average 200 nl table at party poker. these games have enough reraising with junk and enough thinking players that usually, reraising with 99, TT, JJ, etc. makes much more sense than calling because they'll often win at a showdown ui. i'm sure this is the case to an even greater extent in bigger games online too, because the players are better, the players are thinking, the players are aggressive, and the players will try to put you on hands and have a more accute understanding of what's going on when you're 3betting light.

200 nl is a donkfest, however, and in my opinion 3betting oop with TT does essentially turn your hand into a bluff *against the average villain.* i've done a bunch of thinking about this, and the average villain at this level just doesn't play well enough for us to consistently win at showdown after reraising preflop with TT.

[Hince]

[ QUOTE ]
interesting thread. killian, you still haven't responded with lines that will get you to showdown (and win often enough to be +EV) after repopping TT oop. your previous responses, in my opinion, have been copouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not killian, but I completely disagree. It's a difficult hand to play, and it's asking too much of him to create every possible scenario and how to play it. This hand has alot of things to consider when not playing strictly for set value.

[ QUOTE ]

200 nl is a donkfest, however, and in my opinion 3betting oop with TT does essentially turn your hand into a bluff *against the average villain.* i've done a bunch of thinking about this, and the average villain at this level just doesn't play well enough for us to consistently win at showdown after reraising preflop with TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense at all. So against worse opponents you make LESS money with TT????

And how is TT a bluff? You have a premium hand. You reraised. Where is the bluff?

[orange]

your bluffing in the sense that no hands calling an allin on the turn or whatever are ones that we beat in rr-ed pots. really only 99.

say vs a tag, he opens, you rr, he calls.
flop comes blanks, you cbet he calls. turn blank. are you stacking off here? what possible hands do you beat at this point? pushing here is definitely a bluff for me (though often i will just c/f). if your betting this turn for value, i think you underestimate villan's calling range here.