Is there any game more misplayed than this one by the average player?

[Assani Fisher]

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but this doesn't really seem like the type of hand that could properly illustrate great poker skill all that well. It does show that there are some iffy players at that level, no question there.

[/ QUOTE ]For the record, the intent of those hands was to show the iffy play and not to make any comment whatsoever on my play.

As for your post, I agree that I'm most likely a dog, especially considering there are 3 players and there is a chance that I may be playing for 1/2 the pot. However, I believe that we're dealing with implied odds here. If the T or J comes then we have the absolute nuts on the turn and there is no low still. More importantly, a good player probably won't be able to draw to his low after you bet(he obviously wasn't a good player).

Now as you eluded to, we had about a 15% chance of hitting our draw and an 85% chance of missing it. So if we lose that $200 85 times, that means that we have to make about $1150 on average when we do hit it(there is already over $500, so we'd only have to make $650 more on the turn/river). I think that those implied odds are worthwhile.

And of course, this doesn't even take into account that we may just have the best hand and/or we may be able to win the pot on the turn if the other guy doesn't hit a full house.

[Habib Marwan]

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Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

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Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

[Assani Fisher]

BTW, just to show another hand illustrating my initial point:

***** Hand History for Game 4949050045 *****
$2000 PL Omaha Hi-Lo - Sunday, August 13, 21:07:51 ET 2006
Table Table 95206 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: rainaruby ( $2007 )
Seat 4: hilokunto ( $5220.87 )
Seat 5: qazxcvbnm333 ( $1974.50 )
Seat 8: slippery2 ( $15761.17 )
Seat 9: MAHA88 ( $1975.96 )
Seat 6: IcyPots ( $2094 )
Seat 1: oiltrader ( $2975 )
Seat 2: Rushin ( $330 )
Seat 7: TOPT_ ( $2047 )
Seat 10: IWANTURSTACK ( $1753 )
hilokunto posts small blind [$10].
qazxcvbnm333 is sitting out.
IcyPots posts big blind [$20].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IcyPots [ 7h Kc Ts Qs ]
TOPT_ folds.
slippery2 calls [$20].
MAHA88 folds.
qazxcvbnm333 has left the table.
IWANTURSTACK calls [$20].
ClMeFishmyl has joined the table.
oiltrader has been reconnected and has 5 seconds to act.
oiltrader calls [$20].
Rushin folds.
rainaruby calls [$20].
hilokunto calls [$10].
IcyPots checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Th, 7d, 7c ]
hilokunto checks.
IcyPots bets [$117].
slippery2 folds.
IWANTURSTACK folds.
oiltrader calls [$117].
rainaruby folds.
>You have options at Every Penny (No DP) Table!.
hilokunto folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
IcyPots bets [$351].
>You have options at Every Penny (No DP) Table!.
oiltrader calls [$351].
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
IcyPots bets [$1053].
oiltrader calls [$1053].
IcyPots shows [ 7h, Kc, Ts, Qs ] a full house, Sevens full of queens.
oiltrader doesn't show [ 4c, 7s, Ac, 5d ] three of a kind, sevens.
IcyPots wins $3159 from the main pot with a full house, Sevens full of queens.
There was no qualifying low hand.

[Assani Fisher]

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Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

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The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

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If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players. You have to realize that any guy with a made high hand would not be checking with the low draw out there, so a check indicates that he does not the full house- we can be 99% sure of that. That is the importance of having position in this hand and is the reason that I included position in my list of reasons for calling.

[niss]

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If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players.

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I am not questioning your strategy for the hand -- but I do want to point out that assuming you are playing against "good players" even a majority of the time is a very dangerous assumption, even at the higher limits. This, in fact, appears to be the point of your posts -- showing that the play is suspect. So I am not sure why you would want to make plays or defend strategy on the assumption that your adversaries are "good players". I have made this mistake myself (giving too much credit to my opponents) way too often lately.

[Assani Fisher]

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If a high card comes and both players check, then a pot sized bet would take down the pot against 2 good players.

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I am not questioning your strategy for the hand -- but I do want to point out that assuming you are playing against "good players" even a majority of the time is a very dangerous assumption, even at the higher limits. This, in fact, appears to be the point of your posts -- showing that the play is suspect. So I am not sure why you would want to make plays or defend strategy on the assumption that your adversaries are "good players". I have made this mistake myself (giving too much credit to my opponents) way too often lately.

[/ QUOTE ]Very fair point. I guess that if my opponent checked his trip aces on the turn, I would then assume that hes a decent player due to the fact that he made a tough check. But even still, I agree with you that I shouldn't be assuming this.

[Assani Fisher]

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Your flop call in hand 1 sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]I very much disagree, but I'm willing to hear your reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Overcalling a pot bet with A 2 J 10 on an A A 7 board is retarded. Every card in the deck other than a jack or ten leaves you completely lost. Are you expecting to call down in a 3 way pot and show trip aces with a jack kicker to win the high half?

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that there are 6 tens and jacks out there right? And you do realize that if he has A7 or even AK then one of those six outs may very well get me his stack(or in this case, if hes a bad player then he'll pay me off with a naked ace). Furthermore, the fact that there were 3 players in the pot gives a strong indication that someone is going for low and gives me even more EV since obviously if my T or J comes out that does not complete the low. I called a bet for just under $200. I won almost $3000. Now I agree that I can't count on winning $3000 all the time in this spot, but clearly the implied odds justified the call here.

Moreover, you're giving his pot sized bet too much credit. He would do that with any ace. And he raised preflop, which gives an indication that he has a strong preflop hand(that turns out to be not so true, but we don't know that at the time I'm deciding whether or not to make this call). And what hands with an ace are strong? Usually AA(which we can rule out since I have one) or a strong low hand with flush draws. Therefore, it is a possibility that he has a strong low hand and I have the best hand on the flop. My call pretty much tells him that I also have an ace, so its very likely that a good player would slow down on the turn if he didn't have a full house or an ace with a good kicker and I could win the pot on the turn. Furthermore, lets say that he is a good, tight player- Unless he fills up on the turn, hes just as scared of the possibility of me having a full house as I would be of him....its very possible for me to knock a hand like AQ out with a good sized bet.

And finally, as if all that wasn't enough, lets also mention that I have position on both players in this hand.

I think that folding here is overly tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only card you can hit to have a prayer of bluffing is a 9. If a low card comes and its potted again, calling with AJ is terrible. You'll be getting freerolled without any idea if your hand is good enough. Plus, if a low card comes, the money definitely will be going in on the turn. Calling with A J 10 on that board is basically saying, to scoop this pot, I'm gonna have to hit a 6 outer on the turn, (you really only had 4), then dodge 20+ outs on the river. Folding the flop isn't overly tight. It's realizing that the pot will be extremely difficult to scoop, and that you are probably way behind in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]Even though my opponent ended up having 234, we can't necessiarly assume that. So a 2 or a 3 may ruin his low and allow us to bluff as well.

[Kuso]

2-7 TD... basically nobody can play this game well.

[Fiasco]

Phil is right, its an easy game because there is no literature. The only other game ive played on line that theres been little to nothing written about was 5CD. It was incredibly soft at the low limits, but the higher limit games looked pretty tough.

[Bullet_Dodger]

I play mainly SNG's/MTT's for NHLE, but have always found O/8 as a great second game if Im in a slump or tourneys are dry.

But are there enough players on most of the sites to really make a comfortable living off just O/8?