Fossilman's Account Hacked?

[Tornado69]

[ QUOTE ]
For those who thinkt he lawsuit is stupid, really need to read the terms they are agreeing to before they play in a WPT event.

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree, the WPT has helped take poker to that next level where some of these players can make a damn fine living without really having to risk any money at all...HOWEVER.

When you sign the release to play in a WPT event you give them rights to use your image throughout the "universe" "in perpituity." That is what it says on the contract.

What does that mean? If they ever opened a casino on Jupiter, they can use your image to promote it whether that is tomorrow, or 1,000,000 years from now.

You don't like it? Then don't play in any WPT events. Well guess what? They locked up the good ones.

Do you realise how this can conflict with a player's current endorsement deals?

Howard Lederer has a poker video game, WPT creates one, uses Lederer's image on theirs to help compete with his own.

Once again. If you don't want to play by their rules, then go play elsewhere. But where can these players then play? They're effectively being strong armed into signing what could hopefully be ruled an unenforceable contract, their ability to play and earn a living is hindered. Sound a bit like a monopoly?



[/ QUOTE ]

There's MANY other tournaments in different casinos across the world now. WSOP circuit events, EPT events and other non televised tournaments occur everyday in casinos all over the place. Cash games are run everday as well in every single casino and there are big enough games to make a living at as well. Bobby's Room always has some higher limit games for people to play and people have been making a living there playing in those games for years. I'm not saying the WPT release form is fair either, but it's their tournaments and there's only 17 or so a year. Go elsewhere and play if you don't like it because their are poker games all over the world. This lawsuit is ridiculous.

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]

Unless your professors are communists, they will likely find this lawsuit similar very interesting and likely to stimulate identity discussions about intellectual property, a topic that Raymer is an expert in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ahem. I studied law with a couple of communists, and they
would have been more interested in this case than most
of the non-communists on the faculty.

They would have seen it as a sign that the previous free
market of the poker economy has given way to an era of monopoly
capitalism. This validation of Marx's theory would inevitably
be seen as a sign that the system is collapsing under the weight
of its own contradictions, ultimately leading to poker revolution! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[db9db9db9]

Raymer is an attorney. Negreanu is a high school dropout. In judging the merits of a lawsuit, I'd say Raymer might have some insights that Daniel does not.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Let's hit this one issue at a time.

Players popping into and out of empty seats:
While I don't mind this very much, most of the people I'm playing against appear to find it very annoying. Therefore, I do what I can in the chat box to try and get the offending "poppers" to stop. If that doesn't work, I email support. If somebody is acting like a tool, I don't see why it's a bad thing to call them a tool.

Reasons for the lawsuit.
The players are paying all the legal bills, and there is not a single online site that is involved in any way whatsoever. We have publicly stated, and we sincerely mean, that we will not accept any settlement that only serves our personal best interests. We will not settle unless the WPT agrees to change their deleterious and illegal practices with respect to ALL players who enter into WPT events. So, while we are doing this for ourselves, we are also doing it for all of you who do already or might in the future play in WPT events.

Validity of the lawsuit.
It is my personal opinion, as a lawyer who studied antitrust law in Law School, that the WPT is violating the law. Much more importantly, it is the opinion of our attorneys, who are the preeminent sports antitrust lawyers in the world, that the WPT is violating the law.

Daniel's actions re the lawsuit.
Daniel did not go to law school, nor even to college. He knows nothing about the law, and has never studied it. However, he is openly and continually expressing his opinions about the lawsuit to the public. He knows or should know that his doing so will tend to turn at least some of the public opinion against the plaintiffs. And he knows or should know that his legal opinion is worthless, since he has zero training or experience in the area of antitrust law. Therefore, he is either stupid for repeatedly expressing an worthless opinion, or he is acting at the request of the WPT or one of their agents. Hence, I said he is stupid or a sockpuppet. I really don't see how there is a legitimate 3rd option.

I know I sometimes express an opinion on an issue where I'm not an expert, but I pretty much always preface it with a reference to the fact that this is only my opinion, and that I'm not an expert. I have not seen Daniel do this.

So, while there are very good reasons why I should have kept my mouth shut about Daniel and just continued to ignore him, I failed to do so. However, I have no problem with what I said. For some reason Daniel has decided to attack the 7 of us who are trying to help every player in the poker world, and I find that very distasteful. As far as I know, he never came up to any of us and asked us why we were doing this. As far as I know, he immediately decided (on his own or with the prompting of the WPT) that we were wrong, and went after us. I thought Daniel was smart enough to understand that maybe he should educate himself on an issue before jumping to (and publicizing) a conclusion. Maybe I was wrong.

And to those of you who have supported me and our lawsuit in this thread, I express my thanks. As I said above, I am spending my own money, without any expectation of making a profit, let alone getting that money back, to help all of us. The only disappointment in this whole process to date has been those very few poker players who have posted here and on other forums their displeasure with us for our decision to file this lawsuit. I am sad that they don't understand how we are doing this to help them.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[inferno]

nice reply fossilman

[Punker]

[ QUOTE ]
Daniel did not go to law school, nor even to college. He knows nothing about the law, and has never studied it. However, he is openly and continually expressing his opinions about the lawsuit to the public. He knows or should know that his doing so will tend to turn at least some of the public opinion against the plaintiffs. And he knows or should know that his legal opinion is worthless, since he has zero training or experience in the area of antitrust law.

[/ QUOTE ]

I watched Daniel's blog, and my take was not that he felt that the lawsuit was invalid or had no chance of winning or that he was giving a legal opinion of any sort. He simply felt that it was bad for poker, believing that you are trying to take advantage of the catch-22; many of the players are famous because of the WPT, but they WPT should in no way use their fame. I think it's a reasonable point - how many book deals, video games, commentary jobs did Howard Lederer have before the WPT? Isn't it at least fair to consider that the WPT should gain *something* from the work they did to help him gain all of these things? To put it another way, the WPT inflated the value of all of these players, and now the players are saying that the WPT has to pay the extra price.

He also indicated that he personally had never had an issue with the WPT mis-using his name or likeness, and that he wasn't aware of other players having any problem, in fact citing a previous instance where there *was* a small issue, and the WPT addressed it immediately.

I think his feeling is, win or lose, the "Lawsuit 7" are putting their individual gain ahead of the overall poker world. I can't say I'm unsympathetic to his position, at least until the WPT does something that players can point to and say "See, they are exploiting me." If you have examples, I would certainly listen and re-evaluate my position.

[thedarknight]

I was surprised also when DN was going off on the lawsuit...he is verbally attacking a well-educated group. do you think Jesus Phd, ANDY BLOCH who went to HARVARD LAW, and Fossilman know what they're getting themselves into....it's just more of that 20 year old Negreanu coming out again.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
As I said above, I am spending my own money, without any expectation of making a profit, let alone getting that money back, to help all of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg:

As stated I think yours is a very noble cause. However there is some confusion which is added after listening to Howard's interview on the circuit, they discussed the fact that during discovery damages may be determined. Although it was not stated as such I would assume that a goal of discovery would be to determine how much money was made from selling products with the likenesses of Howard Lederer or the rest of the plaintiffs. Can you provide additional insight, or a copy of the filing (which I assume is a matter of public record, please correct me if I am wrong) so I can educate myself better about the case? I understand that you may not be able to discuss discovery at this time of course.

PS: to those who doubted Greg's background on the subject, patent law is a subset of intellectual property. Therefore I don't think there is a better person qualified to be a plaintiff in this case than Greg Raymer, please show him your support.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]

I watched Daniel's blog, and my take was not that he felt that the lawsuit was invalid or had no chance of winning or that he was giving a legal opinion of any sort. He simply felt that it was bad for poker, believing that you are trying to take advantage of the catch-22; many of the players are famous because of the WPT, but they WPT should in no way use their fame. I think it's a reasonable point - how many book deals, video games, commentary jobs did Howard Lederer have before the WPT?


[/ QUOTE ]

As a poker player, I was familiar with almost all of these
players prior to the World Poker Tour. In fact, the only
reason I watched the WPT was so that I could get to see
these players in action more often.

Therefore, you could argue exactly the opposite: that the
World Poker Tour actually owes these players, because
without them, there'd be nothing to watch.


[ QUOTE ]

Isn't it at least fair to consider that the WPT should gain *something* from the work they did to help him gain all of these things?


[/ QUOTE ]

The WPT does gain something from their investment. They
have a successful television show, and a range of moneymaking
spinoffs.

As for the WPT already exploiting players, Andy Bloch gives the example of
the creation of a WPT game that uses players images, etc.
without their permission. I wonder how would Negreanu feel if they
did this to him, and then advertised their game opposite
Stacked?

[TomHimself]

wow FCP is really lame.

gl with the lawsuit greg and nice post