Guide for playing 99-QQ

[BukNaked36]

Another nice write up by Pokey.

[matrix]

ok

QQ vs 3 callers

I have given these callers folowing ranges a)top20% b)top40% c)random hand - I think these are reasonable.

on a ragged A high flop...
37,252,619 games 99.719 secs 373,575 games/sec

Board: Ac 9h 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 28.4993 % 28.34% 00.16% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 30.9066 % 30.18% 00.72% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 25.7254 % 25.00% 00.72% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 14.8687 % 14.50% 00.37% { random }

2 overcards...
7,413,141 games 22.594 secs 328,102 games/sec

Board: 9h Ad Kc
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 15.1092 % 14.75% 00.36% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 40.0912 % 38.35% 01.74% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 32.3684 % 30.58% 01.79% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 12.4312 % 11.58% 00.85% { random }

2flush A high flop
10,155,929 games 26.875 secs 377,895 games/sec

Board: 9h 3h Ac
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.7597 % 25.61% 00.15% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 31.6422 % 30.98% 00.66% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 26.9605 % 26.30% 00.66% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 15.6376 % 15.30% 00.34% { random }

Broadway K high 2flush
9,640,745 games 27.500 secs 350,572 games/sec

Board: Td Ks Js
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 35.9728 % 31.96% 04.01% { QcQd }
Hand 2: 30.1485 % 27.35% 02.79% { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 21.8488 % 19.42% 02.43% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 12.0299 % 10.58% 01.45% { random }

I'd bet on the last one - but only as we have OESD outs to go with our set outs. If we flop no draw at all I am not putting another cent into the pot vs three callers.

We are an underdog in all of the first 3 situations vs 3 callers with pretty wide ranges.

The more people call the more chance there is that one of them connected with the flop and that our pretty one pair hand is toast.

This is at a 6-max table - the number of times I get 3 callers to a pfr is minimal - this happens very very rarely - when it does if I flop no draw I am outta there - I don't think I am losing much value here.

Why continue on a bad flop vs that many villains - you are asking for trouble. There are many other better spots with more EV to throw your chips at than a dodgy flop with a multiway action when you only hold one pair.

More often than not if you bet a flop with three or more callers one of them WILL call and at best then you are *slightly* ahead and more than likely a significant dog to win the SD.

Playing online people Love to play Aces I think you can also bet the farm that if three callers call my(suitably hefty) pfr then one of them has an Ace for sure...

If an Ace flops then I am extra cautious.

So I fold the flop - I've lost perhaps as much as 30% equity in a small pot and I'm out the minor amount of a preflop raise. I'm not losing any sleep over that - I simply reload if need be to get my stack back to a minimum of 100BB and play the next hand - if it turns out I folded the best hand, whatever I'll takes notes that the callers are looser than normal and move on. There are other better spots I can bet on.

Am I really so wrong here??

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
bilbo-san, without being too nasty, you are IMO a disease upon the forums. in your last three posts youve rudely critized people's advice (while apparently not even understanding said people's lines-- mine in particular) without giving advice to the OP on the way YOU would play the hand. Shame on you.

when i said that i limp 99 and TT because often there will be overcards, and often a donk will have one isnt saying that this is the case at all times, thus fold. what i am saying (and said origianlly) was that i play these hands for set value. What this means is limping PF (except in the situations i mentioned) because (especially from EP) a normal raise makes the pot on the flop larger than you would like assuming you have 2 or 3 callers. 2 or 3 callers is by no means a rarity at low limits. and if an overcard flops then you have put yourself (through your pf 3xBB raise) a) out of position b) in a large pot (need to win a pot increases proportionately with the size of the pot) c) against hands that might beat you d) with no information about the hands. Sure, you might have 30 percent equity or whatever, but that number will never actually manifest itself for a variety of reason. i could easily be wrong, but for these reasons i dont like playing 99 and TT like they were QQ.

why dont you try being a helpful member of the community, instead of unilaterally negative...

edit: just parused your posts in other threads and you dont sound nearly as negative as you do here. i guess ill chalk it up to varience.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry you think I'm nasty. I think you are giving very bad, and very weak-tight advice. You are playing 99 and TT for set value only, and your reasoning appears to be "someone always out-flops me". Again, this is very weak-tight, Monsters-under-the-bed-style thinking. I thought this was obvious.

I got sarcastic, but please chill. This board is full of sarcastic posts and I'm certainly not the only guilty party.

By the way, IF you only limp with 99 or TT, then you are probably forced to play it for set value only. This is perhaps ok from the blinds, but in position, this is very bad. When you are in position you can often raise (or re-raise) with these hands, and take it down on the flop (yes, even vs. an overcard or two). Doing this is far more profitable than playing for set-value only. If you get 3 or four callers when you raise, fine, change gears and play for set value (but regardless of your pair, with only 1 overcard I still bet just about anything checked to me).

[yad]

I haven't read all the replies here, but here's my approach to playing these hands. I know lots of people seem to have a lot of trouble with them, but with the exception of a few situations I don't really get it. Here's my approach:

1. These hands all like to raise preflop. I raise preflop with them basically 100% of the time. I also reraise preflop nearly 100% of the time with QQ, and not infrequently with JJ. TT I will occasionally reraise with also, and 99 is not out of the question. These latter three will depend somewhat on the other players (i.e. never reraise 99 or TT against a tight calling station, but sometimes against a LAG). (Note I will also generally reraise PF with AK and often AQ, and sometimes other random hands when I feel like the situation is right, so this will affect my EV reraising with QQ-99, your mileage may vary).

2. On the flop one of three things can happen. Either:

A) I flop a set. Bombs away.

B) I flop an underpair. Bluff once, and possibly bluff again if I think villain is drawing or FOS. But generally shut down if called.

C) I flop an overpair. This is the hard one. Generally I play these very fast, and try to get away from them when I face strong resistance. The latter is hard to do right, but so be it. Overpairs are just tough hands, whether it be AA or JJ (and in fact JJ may be easier than AA).

[jskinn04]

Thanks for another great post grand pooh-bah.

[relayerdave]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With medium pocket pairs against a raise, the common adage is "no set no bet"


[/ QUOTE ]

...which is why we hate "common adages" around here.

To the original poster: these are hands that LOVE putting in a preflop raise, even after limpers. The reason is that they either (a) hit a nuclear-powered hand on the flop and win VERY often when they set up, or (b) take down the hand with a continuation bet.

Are you playing mostly live games, or maybe micro-limits? A 4xBB+1/limper raise really shouldn't be getting you 2+ callers on average at a no-limit online table with a buyin of $25 or higher. If your raises aren't getting enough respect, make them bigger (but CONSISTENTLY bigger -- don't change the size of raises with these hands unless you change the size of raises with all your hands). At a $10NL game, you can probably get away with 5xBB+1/limper or even 6xBB+1/limper; at a live game, 8xBB+2/limper isn't at all unreasonable, and sometimes 12xBB+4/limper is appropriate. Monitor the table, and see what's working and what's not -- go with what works. Your ideal situation is to get exactly one caller.

If someone else raises before the hand gets to you, you will now have a decision to make. Ciaffone's "5/10 rule" says you can call a bet that is less than 5% of your opponent's stack every time, but you should fold a bet that is more than 10% of your opponent's stack here. (Note: that's if you're playing the hand for set value.) I'd consider reraising with these hands, depending on a few things:

1. How loose the original raiser is with raises. The more frisky he is with raising preflop, the more likely I am to pop it back at him.
2. How many players will be in the hand. The worst situation for my hand is probably three players seeing the flop. With four or more, I'm getting pot odds to chase my set; heads-up, my hand is likely to win at showdown. If it's looking like the pot is going to be three-way if I call, I don't smooth-call -- I raise.
3. How weak-tight the original raiser is. If he's the sort that I can push off a hand on the flop, I'm wanting to reraise to take control of the hand and fire a continuation bet on the flop.
4. The stack sizes of the original raiser and the players left to act. If there's a deep stack left to act, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call and hope for another juicy caller. If there's a short stack left to act, I'd also be more inclined to smooth-call, since bloating the pot is likely to pot commit them (and me). If the original bettor is short- or deep-stacked, I'd be more inclined to smooth-call for the same reasons.

On the flop, you'll have one of three situations:

- Set. If you hit your set, play as though someone had lit your ball-hair on fire and you had to finish the hand before you can put the flames out. In other words: FAST. Bet at least 3/4-pot; if raised, three-bet all-in. Don't eff around -- get the money in the middle. Slowplaying is where sets go to die.

- Overpair. These should also be played extremely fast on the flop, but beware of resistance. Your hand is not infallible, here, and you need to be a bit cautious. Consider your hand the winner until proven otherwise, but always keep your eye on pot control. You do NOT want your stack in the middle with just an overpair.

- Underpair. This is a weak hand, and it's probably dog crap if an ace is on the board. If you were in control of the hand preflop, go ahead and make your continuation bet, but that's the last money you put in the pot. Literally. I'm talking "fold to a minraise" here. There's no reason why you should spend 1/3rd of your stack proving that you're beaten. Let it go.

This approach is highly cautious, but at SSNL tables, caution is warranted. The goal with medium pairs is not to maximize your value when you're ahead -- that happens quite naturally. The goal is minimizing your losses when you're behind, and that involves folding. Often. Even if you might be ahead. Let 'em go.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an outstanding post, IMO. Ni hand, sir.