New Fight Question

[El Diablo]

Dom, John, and other SEAL fans,

Would anyone be willing to put a lot of money on SEALs if we were able to get a group of SEALs to weigh in on this question? I would wager that they would not pick themselves as the favorite.

[StregaChess]

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By buttscooting and kicking Ali's shins, Inoki prevented Ali from getting near him. That is my point.

Boxers will dominate under set rules, but they do not train how to defend kicks, takedowns, knees etc.

Its a non-argument that was settled for real 12 years ago.

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You have not point, it was "fixed" and the rules were set so nobody got cute. Insane how can a fixed match prove anything... he got on his butt cause it was the easiest way to collect his paycheck and take a few shots.

Buttscooting as you call it is stupid and is not a good idea in a death match.

[John Kilduff]

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I can guarantee those three guys with knives had them for scare value only then.

I dont care who you are - three guys with knives intending to use them vs anyone......no contest

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Three muggers and two of them had knives. You are right in that they probably didn't expect to really have to use them. What happened was this: J.T. hit one of the guys that had a knife really hard somehow, a KO-type blow, then grabbed his knife away and stabbed one of the other guys with it. That was enough for the third guy who ran away. End result: 1 mugger lying on the street (KO'ed), 1 dead mugger (stabbed), and 1 mugger running away.

edited:

By the way this happened many years ago so J.T. couldn't get in any trouble for it now. If it happened today, he might have to show that he only used "necessary force", such are the laws and attitudes in some jurisdictions, heh. Still my guess is he would be OK legally as it would be hard to make the case that he used excessive force given the danger he was in.

[kdotsky]

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I realy hate the stupidity in this thread from the seals fans but i just cant stop reading it.

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All Seals' battles are scripted by Hollywood. They never lose.

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Yeah, and my ex-SEAL friend J.T.'s encounter with those three guys who had knives trying to mug him on a dark street was scripted by Hollywood too. The one he killed got up and walked again, the one he left lying in the street jumped up laughing, and the one that ran away came running back and then they all went to J.T.'s favorite Irish pub and he bought them all a round of Guiness. Only thing is, J.T. has never been in the movies.

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It's a good story, but it doesn't tell us much. The difference between the average street mugger and most of the fighters we're discussing is gigantic. UFC fighters get picked on by barfighters and occasionally have to fight them. Though for the situation in your story (multiple opponents and a weapon), the SEAL may be suited than the UFC fighter.

The point is people are putting these crazy fatal finishing moves way up on a pedestal, when in reality they either don't exist or aren't practical against a competent opponents. I would guess your friend didn't snap anyones neck or pop someone's eye out in that fight.

[John Kilduff]

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I realy hate the stupidity in this thread from the seals fans but i just cant stop reading it.

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All Seals' battles are scripted by Hollywood. They never lose.

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Yeah, and my ex-SEAL friend J.T.'s encounter with those three guys who had knives trying to mug him on a dark street was scripted by Hollywood too. The one he killed got up and walked again, the one he left lying in the street jumped up laughing, and the one that ran away came running back and then they all went to J.T.'s favorite Irish pub and he bought them all a round of Guiness. Only thing is, J.T. has never been in the movies.

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It's a good story, but it doesn't tell us much. The difference between the average street mugger and most of the fighters we're discussing is gigantic. UFC fighters get picked on by barfighters and occasionally have to fight them. Though for the situation in your story (multiple opponents and a weapon), the SEAL may be suited than the UFC fighter.

The point is people are putting these crazy fatal finishing moves way up on a pedestal, when in reality they either don't exist or aren't practical against a competent opponents. I would guess your friend didn't snap anyones neck or pop someone's eye out in that fight.

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He did it with more mundane techniques and I edited my post to give further insight.

I think it does show an excellent ability to perform very well under life-threatening circumstances though, and that's what a death match contest such as Mr. Sklansky described would be about: ability to fight very well in a life-or-death situation.

[dknightx]

my goodness ... all you SEAL fans out there need to do some research. How many of you actually know anything ABOUT the SEALs besides what you see in Rainbox Six? I'm a huge fan of the SEALs, and have done extensive research on them (BUD/S and SQT in particular) for the past 3 years (As a side note, I am hoping to enlist with the SEAL challenge contract in a year or so).

The amount of H2H combat training a SEAL gets is minimal ... i would say at most 1% of their entire curriculum is focused on this. And who do they learn their techniques from? Basically people who do MMA, etc. They don't have any special, super secret, techniques ... and the techniques the do learn DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, teach them how to KILL someone. They focus more on teaching them how to incapacitate someone (or disarm them), and how to get them to comply. A SEAL will hardly ever find himself in a situation where he needs to rely on H2H combat alone to kill someone ...

Against the average joe shmoe, i would take the SEAL anyday. And against a guy with slightly better H2H skills, I would take the SEAL BECAUSE of the mental aspect ... but against someone who is LEVELS above in H2H combat, theres no way I would take the SEAL, and even a SEAL himself would not say they could either. SEALs have answered hypothetical questions like this all the time, and they always say they would lose ... SEALs are incredible at what they do, and they know what they do is NOT h2h combat.

[John Kilduff]

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my goodness ... all you SEAL fans out there need to do some research. How many of you actually know anything ABOUT the SEALs besides what you see in Rainbox Six? I'm a huge fan of the SEALs, and have done extensive research on them (BUD/S and SQT in particular) for the past 3 years (As a side note, I am hoping to enlist with the SEAL challenge contract in a year or so).

The amount of H2H combat training a SEAL gets is minimal ... i would say at most 1% of their entire curriculum is focused on this. And who do they learn their techniques from? Basically people who do MMA, etc. They don't have any special, super secret, techniques ... and the techniques the do learn DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, teach them how to KILL someone. They focus more on teaching them how to incapacitate someone (or disarm them), and how to get them to comply. A SEAL will hardly ever find himself in a situation where he needs to rely on H2H combat alone to kill someone ...

Against the average joe shmoe, i would take the SEAL anyday. And against a guy with slightly better H2H skills, I would take the SEAL BECAUSE of the mental aspect ... but against someone who is LEVELS above in H2H combat, theres no way I would take the SEAL, and even a SEAL himself would not say they could either. SEALs have answered hypothetical questions like this all the time, and they always say they would lose ... SEALs are incredible at what they do, and they know what they do is NOT h2h combat.

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You're not responding to any of the points I have made throughout this thread about SEALs. What you are rebutting are points I haven't made and points I wouldn't try to make.

[El Diablo]

JK,

If you care to summarize your points re: why you think SEALs have an edge over UFC champ in the fight setup in this thread, I'd be happy to respond.

I'm also going to fire an email to two Naval officer close friends of mine (one is Navy doc so he might not be much help) and another close friend who is an officer in the Marines to see if they can get some feedback from SEAL friends. I don't know how many the Navy guys know, but my Marine buddy has lots of combat experience and has spent a lot of time w/ SEALs.

[JasonK]

I think his point is that the SEAL won't be mentally affected by it being a fight to the death, but the MMA guy will get all stupid and suddenly forget how to fight because the SEAL wants to kill him instead of KO'ing him. Thus, allowing the SEAL to perform one of his super secret instant death blows as the MMA guy weeps in the corner.

[John Kilduff]

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JK,

If you care to summarize your points re: why you think SEALs have an edge over UFC champ in the fight setup in this thread, I'd be happy to respond.

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Well I actually DON'T think they have an edge over UFCers and I never claimed they did. What I've been saying from the outset is that I'd find it hard to choose between the TOP fighting SEAL and the TOP UFCer. I've just been disagreeing with those who have essentially claimed that the top UFCer would be a rollover against the top SEAL. Many seem to have taken my arguments as favoring the SEAL but that's not what I've tried to argue at all. I've merely listed and argued for offsetting reasons why the top SEAL should have a reasonable chance against the top UFCer.

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I'm also going to fire an email to two Naval officer close friends of mine (one is Navy doc so he might not be much help) and another close friend who is an officer in the Marines to see if they can get some feedback from SEAL friends. I don't know how many the Navy guys know, but my Marine buddy has lots of combat experience and has spent a lot of time w/ SEALs.

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Cool.

The reasons I think the top fighting SEAL would be hard to rule out are as follows:

we'll presume the top SEAL has actual successful experience in life-or-death hand-to-hand combat situations. That gives an expoerience edge, much as in dueling where the more skilled marksman who was also a less experienced duelist, often lost to the more experienced duelist who was cooler under the extreme pressure of performing while betting one's life. If top golfers can screw this up when betting over their heads why can't top fighters screw something up the very first time they actually bet their life. That's the biggest bet you can make.

Life or death combat experience is different psychologically and physiologically than any other kind of fighting especially if it is your (the UFCer's) first time. Too much adrenaline due to the fight-or-fight physiological response can cause errors of reaction or measuring distance or in other ways. Yes, adrenaline helps in many ways, but too much adrenaline can have negative side effects too that adversely affect performance--especially coordination in performance. An adrenaline-charged golfer is more likely to miss, and an adrenaline-charged fighter is more likely to be a bit off when punching as far as accuracy goes. The speed and strength boost of high adrenaline comes at a cost and that cost is often accuracy and sometimes judgment.

The top fighting SEAL is already a experienced killer. The UFCer is not. Relates to above.

Top SEAL is an opportunist fighter perhaps in ways the UFCer is not as habitually accustomed to considering. For instance which fighter would be more likely to seize the fleeting opportunity to bite deeply into the other's throat like an animal? My guess is that the SEAL might spot such an opportunity and utilize it more aptly than the UFCer who is more used to repeat procedures under UFC rules.

Top SEAL and top UFCer both know approximately the same killing or stunning or incapacitating blows. Many of those techniques are outlawed under UFC rules, so many techniques historically used in The Octagon would not be useful in a death match since many positions or holds are too vulnerable to "dirty" fighting exploits.

All of the above helps offset the UFCers clear advantage in practice and technique. I can't really estimate to what extent it offsets it though. Therefore I find it hard to choose between the two. If I had to choose I would probably pick the top UFCer but I wouldn't be all that comfortable with the bet and certainly don't think it is a lock for the UFCer like many in these threads seem to suppose it to be.

If you want to ask about average representatives of each group I would be more comfortable pick an average UFCer against an average SEAL, especially if the SEAL has not successfully participated in hand-to-hand combats to the death before.

Hope this explains or clarifies my thoughts. By the way thanks for posing an interesting question to kick off this chain of interesting threads.