Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

[Peter McDermott]

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Ram pays Phil Ivey the money owed from the bet... then beats the living crap out of him for [censored] over a friend and takes his money back


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So, out of your total of nine posts, eight of them have been defending Ram's honour on this particular thread?

Has he started shipping that $20 to railbirds already?

[realjaydub]

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As much as I find it retarded that two Poker Pros are diddling on a golf course wagering for money most people won't see in a lifetime, I find it more retarded that so many people have so much to say about a bet between two guys.

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Nobody besides the fan boys gives a [censored] about the bet or the individuals concerned. People are talking about the ethical dilemmas involved. Given that ethical dilemmas is a subject that has fascinated philosophers since the days of Plato and before, it's hardly surprising that they continue to challenge us.



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Fair enough....I personally don't see any ethical dilemas in this specific situation....they are both hustlers hustling each other. We will see who comes out on top.

[vhawk01]

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As much as I find it retarded that two Poker Pros are diddling on a golf course wagering for money most people won't see in a lifetime, I find it more retarded that so many people have so much to say about a bet between two guys.

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Nobody besides the fan boys gives a [censored] about the bet or the individuals concerned. People are talking about the ethical dilemmas involved. Given that ethical dilemmas is a subject that has fascinated philosophers since the days of Plato and before, it's hardly surprising that they continue to challenge us.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough....I personally don't see any ethical dilemas in this specific situation....they are both hustlers hustling each other. We will see who comes out on top.

[/ QUOTE ]

A guy takes my wallet, so I chain him up in my basement and torture him until he eventually dies. I don't see the dilemma, we were both criminals victimizing each other, we saw who came out on top.

Not claiming this is a perfect analogy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but it does illustrate the problem with reducing it to such a superficial, dismissive description. Clearly there are issues here besides 'two hustlers hustling each other.' The acts of the two parties are not the same.

[realjaydub]

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As much as I find it retarded that two Poker Pros are diddling on a golf course wagering for money most people won't see in a lifetime, I find it more retarded that so many people have so much to say about a bet between two guys.

[/ QUOTE ]





Nobody besides the fan boys gives a [censored] about the bet or the individuals concerned. People are talking about the ethical dilemmas involved. Given that ethical dilemmas is a subject that has fascinated philosophers since the days of Plato and before, it's hardly surprising that they continue to challenge us.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough....I personally don't see any ethical dilemas in this specific situation....they are both hustlers hustling each other. We will see who comes out on top.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible analogy, you weren't out mugging someone elses wallet when they mugged yours.



A guy takes my wallet, so I chain him up in my basement and torture him until he eventually dies. I don't see the dilemma, we were both criminals victimizing each other, we saw who came out on top.

Not claiming this is a perfect analogy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but it does illustrate the problem with reducing it to such a superficial, dismissive description. Clearly there are issues here besides 'two hustlers hustling each other.' The acts of the two parties are not the same.

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Horrible analogy, you weren't out stealing wallets when yours was stolen.

[vhawk01]

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As much as I find it retarded that two Poker Pros are diddling on a golf course wagering for money most people won't see in a lifetime, I find it more retarded that so many people have so much to say about a bet between two guys.

[/ QUOTE ]





Nobody besides the fan boys gives a [censored] about the bet or the individuals concerned. People are talking about the ethical dilemmas involved. Given that ethical dilemmas is a subject that has fascinated philosophers since the days of Plato and before, it's hardly surprising that they continue to challenge us.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough....I personally don't see any ethical dilemas in this specific situation....they are both hustlers hustling each other. We will see who comes out on top.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible analogy, you weren't out mugging someone elses wallet when they mugged yours.



A guy takes my wallet, so I chain him up in my basement and torture him until he eventually dies. I don't see the dilemma, we were both criminals victimizing each other, we saw who came out on top.

Not claiming this is a perfect analogy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but it does illustrate the problem with reducing it to such a superficial, dismissive description. Clearly there are issues here besides 'two hustlers hustling each other.' The acts of the two parties are not the same.

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Horrible analogy, you weren't out stealing wallets when yours was stolen.

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What? Who cares? The important part of the analogy is we are both criminals. The point I was trying to make is that refusing to distinguish between the types of 'hustling' going on is stupid. Just like refusing to distinguish between the types of crimes we were committing.

[realjaydub]

Tell me you're not retarded?

They're both are degen gamblers and know 100% what is up.

Quit being so stupid.

[realjaydub]

So if someone attempted to kill you and you defended yourself and killed him, you're a criminal?

bwahahahah.

Dude, quit posting for life.

[Peter McDermott]

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Fair enough....I personally don't see any ethical dilemas in this specific situation....they are both hustlers hustling each other. We will see who comes out on top.

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Well, Ram has a dilemma. Does he pay or does he not pay? What are the likely consequences of not paying? How do people feel about whether he pays or not? Presumably, these are all issues of interest to readers of 2+2, because most of us are gamblers who either have faced or may face similar situations in the future, regardless of our interest or lack of same in the personalities involved.

I do think it somewhat peculiar that some people here are so insistent that it's incumbent on a golf gambler to minimize their edge, when there's no such obligation on a poker player.

If a rich businessman wants to sit down at the big game, nobody is going to allow *him* 'points', yet presumably most of the money will be made from his mistakes -- mistakes arising due to his relative lack of skill.

Why is this situation acceptable to everybody in poker, but not in golf gambling? Is it just custom and practice?

[luckyjimm]

No-one seems to have discussed that the reason Ram hasn't paid the money is that he can't afford to. I think it seems likely his bankroll is no more than $2 or $3 million, and his net worth is under $5 million. Together with the hurt put on him by Sbrugby, to pay this money would mean him losing the majority of his roll, being out of action, and perhaps even selling his house. Ram Vaswani is not super-robusto; and, after this, he will find it harder to get staked. He is trying to avoid paying because he'd be almost ruined if he did; he will be merely semi-ruined if he doesn't. It seems clear to me if he could pay, he would have paid.

[andyakb]

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So if someone attempted to kill you and you defended yourself and killed him, you're a criminal?

bwahahahah.

Dude, quit posting for life.

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...No and his post didnt lead you to that conclusion either.

Torturing somebody that steals your wallet is a crime. On the other hand, killing somebody in self defense is not. So yeaaaaa, dont really see where you were going with that. His analogy is obviously exaggerated, but it does show the point he is trying to make. Saying that "a hustle is a hustle" is like saying "a crime is a crime," and that is incredibly ridiculous and to say that Ivey's hustle is on the same level as Ram's "hustle" makes no sense.

This really is not a tough concept to grasp, so it surprises me that so many people in this thread share that view.