Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[RedBean]

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Here's how it's gone:


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It was more like this:

You: Bonds admitted to the grand jury he took steroids.

Me: Um..no he didn't.

You: Whatever...so he didn't...but he admitted taking something else that is steroids. That is undeniable fact.

Me: Um...it's circumstantial, not undeniable fact.

You: Whatever...so my facts are wrong and they are really just opinions. I just hope he doesn't get voted in the hall of fame.

Me: Fair enough. I respect your opinion, I just disagree with the manner in which you asserted them as undeniable fact.

[THAY3R]

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You guys are retarded to argue with Red Bean about this. In his time on this forum he's had a massive, blinding mancrush on Barry Bonds and will drag anyone willing into pointless semantical arguments about the steroids thing. Just ignore him.

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Redbean has probabaly been more rational than anyone else in the thread.

[RedBean]

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You guys are retarded to argue with Red Bean about this. In his time on this forum he's had a massive, blinding mancrush on Barry Bonds and will drag anyone willing into pointless semantical arguments about the steroids thing. Just ignore him.

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Actually, I have a mancrush on the law, the labor agreement, due process, and that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.

[niss]

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you know it has to burn the feds inside to see such loyalty.

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No I don't. Nor do you. Why would the feds be "burned up" by Anderson's "loyalty"? Why do you think they even care? The only one getting "burned up" by Anderson's loyalty is Anderson himself, and that's because in the big house the only injections he's getting are of the "hot beef" variety.

[DrewDevil]

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Drew: please respond to the allegation that Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron, and Willie Mays used methanphetamines during their major league careers.

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I don't know anything about it, so I can't respond. Link? Plus, if methamphetamines weren't banned by baseball at the time, then it wasn't cheating. Someone earlier mentioned that Babe Ruth used trick bats before they were outlawed. Well, then it wasn't cheating!

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Then, ask yourself how Gaylord Perry, an admitted cheater, is still in the Hall of Fame.

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I don't think Perry deserves to be in the HoF.

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Then realize that this 'Bonds doesn't belong in the Hall' is a lot of crap since Bonds would be in without 'cheating' like at least half of the major leagues was doing. I've never fully agreed with RedBean here, but you're being ridiculous. The Hall is not full of our angelic heroes of the past - it's full of guys who were the best at the game, whether or not they cheated. Some of them ended up being the best cheaters.

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Bonds would have been an automatic HoFer had he never cheated, but IMO his cheating un-does his deserving-ness.

I honestly don't know where this "everybody has cheated" argument comes from, and I rarely see any evidence to support it. What were all the old timers doing that I've never heard of?

[DrewDevil]

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I also notice you have not answered my question about whether you believe Bonds used steroids.

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[Kneel B4 Zod]

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I honestly don't know where this "everybody has cheated" argument comes from, and I rarely see any evidence to support it.

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this is mostly b/c of the difference between mass media now/then. Cuban had a good piece on this today:

"The PR problem Barry Bonds faces is that all baseball fans know far less about players from their past than they think they do, and that allows them to think far more fondly of them.

Those of us who grew up pre cable, satellite and Internet don't know nearly as much about our sports icons from the early '80s and before as we think we do. Back then we got the game of the week and Sports Illustrated as our source of national baseball information.

Barry Bonds has had the misfortune of winding up his career and tying the record in the generation of Massive Media. The last 10 years , with the advent of satellite TV, digital cable, the Internet and even camera phones, have placed every minute of Barry (and most prominent figures) lives under continuous scrutiny."

[RedBean]

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Why would the feds be "burned up" by Anderson's "loyalty"?

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Because the federal prosecutors have deemed his possible testimony central to an investigation they've spent millions of dollars and 7 years trying to form against Bonds, and they can't even muster a simple indictment without it.

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Why do you think they even care?


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Great question. One wouldn't think they would care this much to expend the amount of time and resources that they have to target a guy who hits baseballs for a living...but for whatever reason, they do.

[4thashortiez]

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The only one getting "burned up" by Anderson's loyalty is Anderson himself, and that's because in the big house the only injections he's getting are of the "hot beef" variety.

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Oh I get it, people get raped in jail. What a funny piece of observational humor!

[DrewDevil]

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Here's how it's gone:


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It was more like this:

You: Bonds admitted to the grand jury he took steroids.

Me: Um..no he didn't.

You: Whatever...so he didn't...but he admitted taking something else that is steroids. That is undeniable fact.

Me: Um...it's circumstantial, not undeniable fact.

You: Whatever...so my facts are wrong and they are really just opinions. I just hope he doesn't get voted in the hall of fame.

Me: Fair enough. I respect your opinion, I just disagree with the manner in which you asserted them as undeniable fact.

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You are the only person I have ever heard who has disputed that the "flaxseed oil" was, in fact, steroids. Not even Bonds has denied this, just that he thought it was flaxseed oil. Are you saying that it was not steroids? Or just that I can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was steroids?

There is no dispute that it was steroids, and since you won't actually say you don't think Bonds used steroids, I think tuq is right and you're just trying to argue semantics.

Also, continuing to post terms like "due process" etc. are basically red herrings since I've never said Bonds belongs in jail anyway.

Here are my three statements again, for the record:

1. Bonds used steroids. Dispute? or no?
2. Bonds was cheating when he used steroids. Dispute? or no?
3. Because Bonds was cheating, he doesn't deserve the HoF.

I assert that #1 and #2 are facts and that #3 is an opinion. If you are going to dispute #1 and #2, then please do, and stop throwing up semantical arguments and red herrings about the legal process.