Say goodbye to the dream

[El Diablo]

la,

FYI, these two are nonfiction books I bet you'd like:

The Soul of a Chef (Ruhlman)
Under the Banner of Heaven (Krakauer)

Also check out:

There Are No Children Here (Kotlowitz)
Amazing Grace (Kozol)
and all the other books by these two authors

Here's a thread of nonfiction recommendations.

[ceczar]

someone sent me a PM in response to my post in the Finance Job thread asking me some advice about how to break into trading type jobs for someone who doesn't have the opportunity to go through the oncampus recruiting process of the top schools. i'm pasting my reply below because i think there are other people in this thread interested in the same thing, and other people in this thread probably have comments on my advice.

Cliff Notes: contact a bunch of headhunters, because they get paid to find you a job, and they have much better contacts than you, and they might already be looking for someone just like you.

[if you aren't already in a quantitative major at a top school] it will probably be impossible to get into a S&T analyst program at a decent bank. they have very organized recruiting programs from the top schools, and they don't have any reason or need to bring people in with alternative backgrounds.

even if you had connections it would be hard to get into a program like that. but connections could work for one of the many smaller shops, as well as hedge funds or other buy-side firms.

my fund went throught the process of bringing in an entry level person last year, and it took us forever because our timing didn't make on-campus recruiting a viable option, and that only makes sense if you're going to be hiring several people anyway.

from a small hedge fund's perspective, if they decide right now that they want to promote someone internally and now need a new entry level trading assistant type, they wouldn't want to wait until july to get a recent graduate, and it would be too late to do on-campus recruiting anyway. it's hard to find a good young person with quantitative skills that doesn't already have a good job. for a fund of <15 people it's a big risk to make a new hire of someone with no experience, because you want someone you can groom to be a full trader so you want someone who has ability and you know will want to stay long-term. to be a viable candidate you need to have both demonstable quantitative ability and demonstrable interest in finance. taking a night course in quantitative finance at a decent local school would help with both, in addition to teaching you something and helping you get contacts/references.

for someone with a background a fund might be interested in (being an econ major with good grades is not enough by itself; but a math or engineering major with some econ/finance interest/background would be good, especially from a good school), contact headhunters. a headhunter may very well be looking for someone just like you, or be able to refer you to another headhunter. they will also help you assess what type of position you would be qualified for.

make sure you do your research so that you have an idea about the types of products you're interested in and have a convincing story about why you really want to do this type of job (e.g., "i read When Genius Failed and am fascinated by statistical arbitrage...and my success in high stakes poker makes me believe i would both enjoy and have success in trading"

[BHold]

How in the world do these firms convince young college grads to work 80 hour weeks? Do they just bank on the fact that there are many that will not understand the very high diminishing returns on money after you're making a comfortable enough level? Just hope the thought of a pretty bank statement will outweigh the prospect of losing out on most of their 20's? It boggles the mind why anyone would agree to give up so much for so little.

[El Diablo]

B,

"How in the world do these firms convince young college grads to work 80 hour weeks?"

Because the 30yo guys hiring them are making 2M+ per year and there are very few career paths that lead to that.

[burningyen]

Because young college grads want the money and the power and the women.

[Bill Ivey]

[ QUOTE ]
isnt 60k in NY minimum wage?

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

[BHold]

Yes, as I said they'll get a nice looking bank statement. But once you eclipse 100k or so every time you double that money, it gets less and less significant to a point where it just about doesn't matter except in competing with the next guy (I realize this competition is the primary reason). Is there really an important difference between 500k and 2M? Not really, you can just buy some more things you really have no need for (If you have time to use them when not working or sleeping). As for women: while they will surely find a rich guy a bit more attractive than a guy only earning a comfortable level, don't you want to have time in your day to actually be with those girls?

I think the strongest argument one can make to defend applying for a trader or other extremely time consuming yet highly paying job is this: You can potentially retire very young. However, I believe this argument has a serious flaw. Tomorrow is not guaranteed to anyone. It is generally not a good idea to base your life around the prospect of happiness 10 years from now. Way too much can happen in that time. While those young traders suffering in an office building for 2/3 of their waking young life may convince themselves that the future prospects of being "rich" are worth it, one day they will wake up 30 years old and wonder what happened to the last 8 years. They will realize they didn't need that 7-8 figure bankroll to do the things they most enjoy.

I'm a 21 year old junior finance major. I really have no idea what job I could possibly enjoy, I just know I'll be extremely depressed in any situation where I'm forced to work 14 hours a day. I'm currently considering working some standard finance job for the necessary 2-3 years 40 hours a week until I can get into business school and then becoming a professor. They have joke hours can potentially touch 200kish. Thats just a thought though, I have no idea. Any ideas for a finance major that has 0 intentions of working 60-80 hours for a million dollars?

[El Diablo]

B,

"Is there really an important difference between 500k and 2M?"

Yes, a huge difference.

[ceczar]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats just a thought though, I have no idea. Any ideas for a finance major that has 0 intentions of working 60-80 hours for a million dollars?

[/ QUOTE ]

apparently you haven't been paying attention to the thread.

most traders work 55-60 hours a week. some work more, but i know of none that work 70. some work less, and there are certain products you can trade on an exchange floor where you work pretty much 9:30-3:30

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]

Is there really an important difference between 500k and 2M?


[/ QUOTE ]

huge.
500k is enough money to live very nice, especially if its going to be a salary for years. $2 million a year is hugggge money. like, im starting to get bored buying so many cars money. (again, assuming its a yearly salary, and not just one year)