Fossilman's Account Hacked?

[bruceypants]

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Annie Duke chatting on UB right now.. She says Daniel is making threats toward her and Howard, threatning to turn them in for tax evasion. Annie says him and Lyle are close and he's getting fed all his crap from the top.

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This is sooo awesome! I've changed my mind about this lawsuit. I think it's going to be the best thing ever. Way to go Annie, Raymer, Howard, Bloch, Hachem, Jesus, and Gordon! You guys rock!

[Lawman007]

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Annie Duke chatting on UB right now.. She says Daniel is making threats toward her and Howard, threatning to turn them in for tax evasion. Annie says him and Lyle are close and he's getting fed all his crap from the top.

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Man, some of these pros act like a bunch of third graders. LOL

[baltostar]

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What in the world is a young-earth creationist? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Similar to a Flat-Earther. A YEC is someone who rejects virtually all of science, and thinks the Earth is only about 6000-10000 years old. (We know for a fact that the Earth is about 4.55 billion years old.)

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Are you serious? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] Anybody got a link to some proof that Negreanu believes this?

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Sounds kinda cultish. Which would fit DN's fanbase. You ever been over to the FCP forums ? ... scary ... and then there's the "FCP Poker Army" ... 1984 ... Big Brother ... yuck ...

[SuperUberBob]

I'm no expert. But I'll try here.

This is obviously a very interesting case regardless of the outcome.

Greg does state that the online poker sites are not involved in the lawsuit and of course that is correct. However, they will benefit significantly if the seven players win in this lawsuit. It isn't just a coincidence that all seven players happen to represent three of the more popular online poker websites around. This is actually why I'm surprised that players such as Mike Sexton and the now controversial Daniel Negreanu are not involved.

The biggest problem is this: As you know, players like Greg and Howard Lederer are under exclusive contracts with the online sites they're affiliated with. They are the only sites that can use their names to advertise their product.

However, when they end up signing the contract to play in the WPT, they have those same rights as well. If somebody wanted to use the intellectual property of Greg to sell their product, they would have to go to Poker Stars and probably pay a sum of money to have it done. They are the only firm that can do that.

But when those players sign the WPT releases, there is another competitor in the market for those rights and could possibly sell those rights for a cheaper price and undercut any profit Stars would make off of that. To compensate, Stars would have to lower their prices, which would then start a price war between the WPT and online poker sites.

Naturally, having those exclusive rights is very helpful in the long run profit wise. But, they no longer become exclusive when they are signed to another firm. Now there are conflicting contracts and more legal issues arise. Then the online poker sites have to be involved in legal matters.

There is really nothing to lose here for the seven plantiffs. If they win, changes are made. If they lose, they stay at the status quo. Nothing gets worse for them. It's a different story for the WPTE. They aren't all that wealthy of a firm and going through paying cost courts and legal fees will hurt a lot if they continue to fight it. I really see no way of justifying it unless they believe that it will bring more profit in the long run. WPTE has nothing to gain and everything to lose. Nothing gets better for them, it just stays the same.

Daniel's opinion isn't as much of a legal one as it is of a moral one. On a moral scale, is opinion does hold merit. It can be perceived as biting the hand that feeds you. He believes that will affect poker negatively no matter what the outcome is. From a legal opinion, yeah. He's got no idea.

The issue deals far more with money than the plantiffs make it out to be. The portrayal of the plantiffs as the superheroes of the poker world who destroy the evil big businesses is just ridiculous. They, like every other rational human being on Earth (or in the "perpetuality of the universe"), are motivated by self-interest. They gain a hell of a lot. Poker players, who feel a residual effect of the suit, gain enough to feel satisfied and build the reputation of the seven plantiffs. Online poker sites are finally the exclusive holders to their affiliates and all competition for their intellectual property rights is eliminated.

And the WPTE. They go bankrupt and bite the dust.

On a side note, I'm a member of FCP and really enjoy posting there. It's pretty fun. 2p2 for serious stuff. FCP for fun.

[*TT*]

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Despite Raymer's spin, they haven't put Raymer's image on a billboard and used it to try to sell Coke or something.

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No they haven't.
And Raymer never said that they did.

The fact is, the WPT could do this IF THEY WANTED TO because of the contract.

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In the event the WPT ever is forced to sell or go out of business, their intelectual property and contractural holdings will be sold. The new owner at that point can use the likenesses of WPT players as they please, it would be immoral but 100% legal.

I chatted once again with my attorney about the case today (he hasn't looked over the public filings yet but I think I gave him a fair basic overview), he tells me there is precedence in existing contractual cases in some states that would the clause of this contract invalid. Sorry I don't have more specifics at this time.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[bruceypants]

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This is actually why I'm surprised that players such as Mike Sexton and the now controversial Daniel Negreanu are not involved.


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I think everyone is underestimating how clever Daniel has been through all this. Daniel and the head guy at WPT (Steve Lipscomb?) are supposedly good friends. In any event, at one point, the WPT was using Daniel's image in a way in which Daniel didn't approve of. Daniel raised a stink on his web site and eventually the WPT stopped using Daniel's image, although they continued using other players' images.

Now, I think that Daniel and Steve have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship. As long as Steve doesn't use Daniel's image in a way that Daniel disapproves of, Daniel will speak out against the lawsuit. As long as Daniel continues to speak out against the lawsuit, Steve will not dare to use Daniel's image. They both kind of need each other and I'm sure both Daniel and Steve would prefer their current relationship as opposed to a lawsuit.

One of the side benefits to Daniel of this lawsuit is that the WPT fields are weaker due to the 7 plaintiffs boycotting of the WPT. Thus, Daniel not only has an incentive to stay out of the lawsuit so that he can play against the weaker fields, he also has an incentive to inflame the issue so that the lawsuit might drag on longer.

Anyway, I think Daniel has played his hand very well here. His image is not being misused, he gets to play against weaker WPT fields, and he supposedly plays poker with Steve and takes money off him. Pretty damn clever and much better than being involved in an expensive, emotionally-charged lawsuit.

[bruceypants]

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In the event the WPT ever is forced to sell or go out of business, their intelectual property and contractural holdings will be sold. The new owner at that point can use the likenesses of WPT players as they please, it would be immoral but 100% legal.

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I'd be curious to here what the players think is fair use of their image by the WPT. It's not clear to me exactly what they want. As near as I can tell, the WPT has used only video footage of the players from WPT events and has only used that footage as part of a product (footage in a fantasy camp and footage in a video game).

It seems to me that the WPT should be able to contract for that. That is, if players want to play in WPT tourneys, then they should have to agree to let the WPT use the video footage in this manner. After all, the WPT does own the video footage.

I also wonder what limits are inherent in the current WPT release. Just because the release says they can use player images however they want, doesn't mean that there isn't some other law (right of publicity perhaps?) that limits that use.

Anyhoo, hopefully this will be a very contentious, very entertaining lawsuit.

[sekrah]

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This is actually why I'm surprised that players such as Mike Sexton and the now controversial Daniel Negreanu are not involved.


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I think everyone is underestimating how clever Daniel has been through all this. Daniel and the head guy at WPT (Steve Lipscomb?) are supposedly good friends. In any event, at one point, the WPT was using Daniel's image in a way in which Daniel didn't approve of. Daniel raised a stink on his web site and eventually the WPT stopped using Daniel's image, although they continued using other players' images.

Now, I think that Daniel and Steve have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship. As long as Steve doesn't use Daniel's image in a way that Daniel disapproves of, Daniel will speak out against the lawsuit. As long as Daniel continues to speak out against the lawsuit, Steve will not dare to use Daniel's image. They both kind of need each other and I'm sure both Daniel and Steve would prefer their current relationship as opposed to a lawsuit.

One of the side benefits to Daniel of this lawsuit is that the WPT fields are weaker due to the 7 plaintiffs boycotting of the WPT. Thus, Daniel not only has an incentive to stay out of the lawsuit so that he can play against the weaker fields, he also has an incentive to inflame the issue so that the lawsuit might drag on longer.

Anyway, I think Daniel has played his hand very well here. His image is not being misused, he gets to play against weaker WPT fields, and he supposedly plays poker with Steve and takes money off him. Pretty damn clever and much better than being involved in an expensive, emotionally-charged lawsuit.

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Launching threats to send Howard Lederer to prison for supporting the suit? (essentially blackmail)

Yea that Daniel Negreanu, So full of class. What a heck of a guy.

Danny is a dirtbag. Period.

[bruceypants]

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Launching threats to send Howard Lederer to prison for supporting the suit? (essentially blackmail)

Yea that Daniel Negreanu, So full of class. What a heck of a guy.

Danny is a dirtbag. Period.

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Do you have a copy of that UB chat? If so, you should post it so we can all see it.

As for Danny being a dirtbag .... maybe. He is a poker player (as are the 7 plaintiffs) which essentially means he lies for a living. When dealing with other poker players, one should always be on their guard.

[integrate]

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This is actually why I'm surprised that players such as Mike Sexton and the now controversial Daniel Negreanu are not involved.


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I think everyone is underestimating how clever Daniel has been through all this. Daniel and the head guy at WPT (Steve Lipscomb?) are supposedly good friends. In any event, at one point, the WPT was using Daniel's image in a way in which Daniel didn't approve of. Daniel raised a stink on his web site and eventually the WPT stopped using Daniel's image, although they continued using other players' images.

Now, I think that Daniel and Steve have somewhat of a symbiotic relationship. As long as Steve doesn't use Daniel's image in a way that Daniel disapproves of, Daniel will speak out against the lawsuit. As long as Daniel continues to speak out against the lawsuit, Steve will not dare to use Daniel's image. They both kind of need each other and I'm sure both Daniel and Steve would prefer their current relationship as opposed to a lawsuit.

One of the side benefits to Daniel of this lawsuit is that the WPT fields are weaker due to the 7 plaintiffs boycotting of the WPT. Thus, Daniel not only has an incentive to stay out of the lawsuit so that he can play against the weaker fields, he also has an incentive to inflame the issue so that the lawsuit might drag on longer.

Anyway, I think Daniel has played his hand very well here. His image is not being misused, he gets to play against weaker WPT fields, and he supposedly plays poker with Steve and takes money off him. Pretty damn clever and much better than being involved in an expensive, emotionally-charged lawsuit.

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Launching threats to send Howard Lederer to prison for supporting the suit? (essentially blackmail)

Yea that Daniel Negreanu, So full of class. What a heck of a guy.

Danny is a dirtbag. Period.

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I don't see anywhere mentioned that he would report them for tax evasion (which is all hearsay anyways) for supporting the suit. If anything, it's because he simply doesn't like them. Dirtbag or not, I don't see any form of blackmail here.

Let's not start making things up now.