Official Barry Bonds Countdown Thread

[DrewDevil]

The undeniable fact is that Bonds took steroids, not that he admitted taking steroids. He admitted using something that was, in fact, steroids.

LOL at you saying I just believe everything I read in SI, when you willfully disregard the mountain of evidence and wave away witnesses, grand juries, prosecutors, etc., all showing that Bonds is a lying cheater.

Enjoy your denial-fest.

[RedBean]

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The undeniable fact is that Bonds took steroids, not that he admitted taking steroids. He admitted using something that was, in fact, steroids.


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In reality, you'd have to agree that while you may believe it to have been steroids, the proof is circumstantial at best, and far from an undeniable fact.

You can't just claim it to be an undeniable fact because you so desperately want it to be.

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you willfully disregard the mountain of evidence and wave away witnesses, grand juries, prosecutors, etc., all showing that Bonds is a lying cheater.


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Am I waving away the witnesses?

Those directly involved, Greg and Victor, are both on record as saying that while they gave other athletes steroids regimens, they never did so with Bonds.

Other "witnesses" who were quoted in the for-profit book smearing Bonds via 3rd and 4th hand information have declined giving that same testimony under oath.

Am I waving away the grand jury?

After 7 years of investigation, they have refused to deliver an indictment on Bonds for anything...not steroid use, tax evasion, or perjury.

The man hasn't even been charged with a crime, much less convicted, and you are misinterpreting grand jury proceedings as if it is a conviction.

The grand jury listens to prosecution's case and determines if there is enough evidence to even go to trial, and so far, they have declined to produce an indictment.

What does that tell you about the "mountain of evidence"?

The folks charged with reviewing the evidence firsthand, listening to the government's case, they have refused to produce even an indictment.


Am I waving away the prosecutors?

Oh, you mean those overzealous guys who are wasting millions in taxpayer dollars and breaking federal laws in their pursuit of a guy who hits a baseball really far and have yet failed to produce even a simple indictment?

[secretprankster]

I don't think DrewDevil ever learned the difference between opinion and fact.

[RedBean]

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Enjoy your denial-fest.

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You call it a "denial-fest"...I call it "due process".

Call me crazy, but seeing that it's one of the more important individual rights in our country and society, and I've known several folks who've given up alot to protect and defend it...the least I can do is afford it to a guy who hits baseballs for a living.

[DrewDevil]

This is really absurd. Anderson is rotting in jail because he refuses to testify about Bonds! His silence is the reason there hasn't been an indictment!

But listen. I don't really care if Bonds is indicted or not. I am a libertarian and I don't even think steroids should be illegal! I don't think the government should be after Bonds for doing steroids... perjury? Different story. All I have said is that Bonds used steriods, that steroids use is cheating, and that therefore Bonds doesn't deserve the Hall of Fame.

I am only referencing the grand jury testimony because it establishes that Bonds used steroids. The "flaxseed oil" he used was a steroid! There is no dispute about that! It's not "circumstantial proof" -- no one is disputing that it was steroids! It was 100% steroids! Period!

Let's just get down to brass tacks, Redbean.

I have two questions for you.

1. Do you believe Barry Bonds has taken steroids, or not?

2. If your answer is anything other than "yes," then why do you find Bonds more credible than all the other people who have said he used them?

[SL__72]

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Enjoy your denial-fest.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call it a "denial-fest"...I call it "due process".

Call me crazy, but seeing that it's one of the more important individual rights in our country and society, and I've known several folks who've given up alot to protect and defend it...the least I can do is afford it to a guy who hits baseballs for a living.

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Drew doesn't believe in due process. He already stated that being arrested should mean automatic suspension in a different thread. Not being arrested and charged with something, just arrested.

[RedBean]

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I don't think DrewDevil ever learned the difference between opinion and fact.

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Even more alarming, I think somehow he decided that his opinions constitute fact.

[DrewDevil]

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Enjoy your denial-fest.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call it a "denial-fest"...I call it "due process".

Call me crazy, but seeing that it's one of the more important individual rights in our country and society, and I've known several folks who've given up alot to protect and defend it...the least I can do is afford it to a guy who hits baseballs for a living.

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Thank you, Patrick Henry.

I have NEVER said that Bonds does not deserve due process IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM. He deserves, and is getting, his full complement of due process with regards to the federal investigation.

But Bonds does not have a constitutional right to get into the Hall of Fame! Do you guys even understand that "due process" only applies to the courts system?

And when I said that being arrested ---> suspension, it was the same principle. There is no constitutional right to play in the NFL or MLB. Being arrested means there is substantial evidence against you.

So no, I don't think that the Bill of Rights should apply to the Hall of Fame, or the "right" of someone to play professional sports. "Due process" is for people who may be incarcerated, and you don't have to be "innocent until proven guilty" before you go into the Hall of Fame.

[dnh83]

I like Bonds and I'm rooting for him, but as far as I'm concerned Drew is right. If someone slips a roofie in my drink and I drink it, then I've taken a roofie. It doesn't matter if I knew it at the time or not, it went into my system and I took drugs.

Bonds admitted to taking "flaxeed oil" or whatever which is actually a steriod. I don't see how this is anything but a fact. He told this to a grand jury. It's BS that the testimony got leaked but it did. Thus Bonds, at least for a very brief period of time, took steriods. Fact.

[RedBean]

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Bonds admitted to taking "flaxeed oil" or whatever which is actually a steriod. I don't see how this is anything but a fact.


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It isn't a fact because it has never been proven that the clear substance believed to be flaxseed oil that Bonds ingested was anything other than actual flaxseed oil.

Granted, circumstantial evidence highly suggests that it was the same "clear" given to other athletes, but circumstantial evidence != fact.