The Ant and the Blade of Grass

[qwnu]

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Freezing, is a behavioral trait that occurs in mid-life. Unlike beneficial mid-life physical traits (like waiting to a certain age to become reproductive), this behavioral trait is presumably "learned" in adulthood. After the fact, so to speak.

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I think you're making an artificial distinction between physical traits, which you understand to be genetic, and behavioral traits, which you presume to be learned.

But you've answered your own question by stating that insects are, to the first approximation, purely dumb automatons, incapable of learning. Therefore the behavior must be driven by genetic factors.

The expression of genes as physical structures is no less complex than the expression of genes as behaviors.

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Freezing, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily complete any meaningful purpose.

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In this context, I'd say staying alive is the most meaningful purpose there is.

[carlo]

From what I can tell, your refering to instinctual behavior and how this could come about. Of course the genetic code is brought up along with environment to a lesser extent. If these were true I'd like to know the source of this "intelligence" in nature which knows how to change the gene then change the behavior. I will not accept the "G" word as an answer but would certainly like to hear the explanation. Also I would like to not accept the "R" word for it just puts the question into another sphere.

Perhaps a consideration of the mineral realm might shed light on instinctual behavior. The basic equation of an acid-base reaction is:

Acid + Base= Salt + Water + Warmth

Example: HCl + NaOH= NaCl + HOH + Warmth

This is the basic understanding of the reaction as found in nature/laboratory. Measurements are made,etc. and the above has common agreement.

The question again is: What is it that causes the parts and pieces of the reactants to form an entirely new resultant plus the water plus the warmth? Is there a genetic code here? Is there some intrinsic part of the elements which say: do this! when such and such happens? Please no "G" word or "R" word allowed.

Thanx in advance.

[TimM]

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Chance beats purpose every time.

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This statement betrays your lack of understanding. It is selection pressure that drives evolution, chance simply provides the variation.

[NotReady]

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It is selection pressure that drives evolution


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Fine. Mindless selection pressure beats human intelligence every time. Much better.

[luckyme]

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It is selection pressure that drives evolution


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Fine. Mindless selection pressure beats human intelligence every time. Much better.

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Exactly. Once Allah or the Great Raven created the weak force, the strong force, gravitrons, etc, ( or even merely the precursors to those) he could pretty much dust his hands and walk away. Mindless processes will take over from there.

luckyme

[soon2bepro]

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Well, I certainly have a healthy respect for evolution, but just how on earth did this worm evolve to know not only to invade the brain of the ant, but to then have an exact effect on the brain that causes it to climb up the blade of grass?

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I had this exact discussion with a friend yesterday night.

First, the worm likely starts in the belly of a cow/sheep or similar. Then through stools or maybe urine ants are contaminated, and some of them return to cows's bellies or whatever by the ant accidentally being ingested by these animals. Or perhaps the worm starts in ants and goes the other way around.

In any case, once this cycle gets started, mutations that increase the chance of the ant getting eaten by a cow or sheep get selected for. I doubt the mechanism by which the parasite gets the ant to climb up the blade of grass is very complex. It's probably the case that all the parasite does is hijacking something already in the ants brain and alter it just slightly, so as to induce this compulsive behaviour.

I guess the accidental ingestion of an ant by a cow or sheep must be more than just accidental for this sort of thing to develop. It should happen quite often. But I don't see why that would be far fetched.

[vhawk01]

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You know enough to cringe when you hear agency bestowed upon mindless processes (mindless added for NRs benefit)


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I don't cringe when anthropomorphism dominates evolutionist literature. I love it. I especially love the way mindless evolution designs complicated mechanisms when the genius of man can't even understand how. Chance beats purpose every time.

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Right, I was talking about Lestat, someone who presumably reads this stuff to learn, honestly, about things he doesn't understand. IOW...not you.

[NotReady]

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Right, I was talking about Lestat, someone who presumably reads this stuff to learn, honestly, about things he doesn't understand. IOW...not you.


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So why bring me into it - how is that honest?

[hexag1]

think about the experiment with human babies and heights. scientists have placed babies on glass tabletops. they start out on a solid opaque surface and in front of them is a glass table with nothing beneath. babies even at 6 months, WILL NOT CLIMB ONTO THE GLASS. even if their mother calls them. even if they are shown toys. why? did they learn the hard way by falling and injuring themselves? (Ill never do that again!) no. its hardwired in to the brain.
someone above said that they would find it hard to believe that there was a first spider to freeze at a threat. would it be difficult to believe that there was a first baby to fear heights? maybe the truth is somewhere in between. perhaps our infant ancestors were born with a few hardwired behavioral choices.
1. ignore heights altogether
2. be cautious of heights, but explore your surroundings
3. be fearful of heights and cling to anything solid for your life!
same thing with the spider
when confronted with a looming threat you can:
1. do nothing and keep moving
2. keep moving but slow down
3. FREEZE!
perhaps in both cases the creature could have been equally inclined to all 3 choices. but any creature that had a tendency to go toward choice 3 would be more likely to survive and reproduce

[vhawk01]

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Right, I was talking about Lestat, someone who presumably reads this stuff to learn, honestly, about things he doesn't understand. IOW...not you.


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So why bring me into it - how is that honest?

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Come on now. I was pretty explicit for why I 'brought you into it.' I am trying to use mindless as often as possible in as many contexts as possible, since you seem to think that only evil atheists use it as a means of disproving God. I plan on referring to gravity, tides, climate and everything else as mindless, whenever I can remember to.