crazy fold at my table- 10/25 fw

[felson]

there's a ton of smileys here. i copied the puking one to photobucket.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd cut a big toe off before i folded second set without a flush or straight out there

[/ QUOTE ]
Now THAT'S range-merging.

Would you accept an indian burn before folding a gutshot here?

[88Orange]

On more than one occasion, I have folded middle sets on the flop when it was only possible that I was losing to top set. The first time I did it, I heard the audible gasps and whispers of “idiot” from the onlookers. When the guy tabled top set, the onlookers likely had second thoughts about their condescending judgments.

I met Samo at Foxwoods when I folded TT face up on a flop of Qh Th 7c. Incredulous, he flipped over QQ. I have made similar folds several times. The only time I have not had the person show me that I made a crazy-yet-correct fold was Saturday night, when I didn’t bother to ask Chris if I had made the right fold. I have never (except possibly on Saturday night when Chris did not show his cards) incorrectly folded middle set in instances such as these; I have never incorrectly folded KK pre-flop.

When I folded on the turn, I think I said something like, “the real superstar play was to fold this face up on the flop. But on the flop, I think this hand is just un-foldable. On the turn, however, it’s a clear fold.” Although I have taken up to ten minutes to make some calls and folds, this one took less than one minute. If you think I am a nit, please check out the article, “Trusting Your Analysis” in Bluff’s February 2007 issue before passing judgment.

I am a losing on-line player. In person, however, I do pretty well. In live play, I don’t ignore the feelings I get about someone’s hand. I don’t say (to myself), “I HAVE to call (or raise); I have middle set!” On line, I can’t wait to get the money in with middle set or other similarly great-but-possibly-second-best hands. If I were playing this hand on-line, I would have lost my stack (my recollection is that Chris had a little over $10K; I covered).

If you think my play was terrible or that I am a terrible player, please travel to Foxwoods and let me know when you will be playing. Bring lots of money. Sit deep. Purchase your return ticket in advance. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[DJ Sensei]

probably helps you that the villain didnt show, now all you have to do is sit back and say 'call' for the rest of the day and take every bluffed chip on the table. and thats worth way more than personal edification.

[Gary Stevenson]

i was playing at the table after JTL, snipes and chris left and ppl were still discussing the hand. eventually chris came back down late night/early sunday morning and played again. some of the guys at the table were needling chris about what he had but he wouldn't reveal it..it actually got kind of tiring for those of us who didn't care that much and i'm sure for chris. eventually when one of the others at the table who repeated for maybe the 5th time that he was sure that he had KK or AQ, chris said he'd tell us one thing- he didn't have either of those hands... that doesn't really help that much, but fwiw, from the way the hand played and chris' refusal to reveal his hand i think he probably had QQ and JTL made a great fold.

[jsnipes28]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think my play was terrible or that I am a terrible player, please travel to Foxwoods and let me know when you will be playing. Bring lots of money. Sit deep. Purchase your return ticket in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

John-

I did not intend to call you out in this post. I thought you played very solid and was really just interested in hearing your thought process for the fold. I realize that there are many differences between live and online- and I am trying to sort some of those things out so that I can become a better live player (as currently I think I suck).

My line of thinking behind it being a really tough fold is the fact that you essentially 4bet preflop after the straddle and rr. So, IMO your hand appeared to be KK/AA. Thus, a QJx flop is incredibly good flop to bluff at and if you are at all deep he has to know that he can usually get you off KK/AA w/ 2 barrels. Perhaps this is one of the differences of live play, in that people just do not bluff nearly as often. But, if I were to make that call in Chris's spot w/ 99-QQ pf I would definitely only be doing it thinking that there would be some flops that I missed that I could still bluff at and get you off KK/AA.

Sorry of this post originally made you feel like I was calling you a bad player, as that is certainly not the case at all.

-John

[Melchiades]

Also why can we rule out 77? Does he not raise preflop with 77? Do we expect him to slow down on the turn with 77? This hand doesn't make any sense to me unless he had some sort of tell to go on.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]
looks pretty awful to me if all we have are the reads in the op. in fact it looks pretty terrible no matter what the reads are.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing to shine a little light on this thread is that JTL is known for making amazing reads. Ive seen him make incredible calls w stuff like ace high in huge pots. He is definitely not an easy guy to bluff. As a matter of fact if i could find any flaw in his game (from when i used to play with him a year ago) it was his inability to fold certain hands in big pots. Looks like maybe he has corrected that.

Based on the comments made by the observers who were there for this i would be very suprised if villian didnt have QQ.

[88Orange]

J -

No worries . . . my response was not directed at you. You seemed to be a good player and I do not think you posted this to say that I am terrible. My response was directed to reply posts such as:

"Thats what amazes me about live poker. The live players will play so bad, pay off everything, then out of the blue they make a ridiculous fold for no reason.

Last time I saw someone flips over a set and fold, it caught me off guard and I burst out laughing."

Please come to Foxwoods! The games are easy! We are folding middle sets! When you come, have the courage to identify yourself as Equal or PoopinMyPants . . . come soon, before your bankroll has suffered the fate of your feeble poker mind.

[B-Man]

John,

I was at the table when this hand was played. I'd love to hear your thoughts on why Chris did not have AA, KK or bottom set--couldn't he have played these hands in the same manner?

In hindsight, I think the fact that Chris did not show tends to make me *think* (better than 50/50) he had QQ, but at the time, how can you be sure enough that he has QQ to fold middle set?