Trying to vary my play... - Page 3

PokrLikeItsProse · #21 05-29-2007, 01:10 PM

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I do, too. It was one of those enlightening moments when I said, Ah HA!

It really kicks into high gear in NL. Occasionally limping AA UTG in NL rocks. Limping AA in limit is a death wish. Just one of the many differences between the two games.

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It's not really a death wish, but it's probably only a good idea at tables where your opponents are sufficiently perceptive that you need to make deceptive plays, such as when your EP raises are getting too much respect.

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Playing AJo in EP, whether limping or raising is -EV for most people most times, imho. Lost in space. ABC poker would deem it a fold, I think.

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It's not a fold for ABC poker. SSHE has it as a limp in EP at a tight table and a raise vs. a loose table. HPFAP seems to have it as playable from EP unless the table is tough or aggressive. It's way more playable in LHE than NLHE from EP and is probably a fold according to ABC poker for no limit, but not for limit.

Cactus Jack · #22 05-29-2007, 01:49 PM

Ok.

A. Limping AA utg as a death wish may be an exaggeration, but it's certainly a bad play in LLHE. Get those bets in there when they are calling small bets. They usually aren't around when you want them to put in big bets.

B. AJ in EP--

I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

For all the times you might win a small pot--single pair hands win few big pots--you will lose a lot of pots, thereby offsetting your wins. Plus or minus? Close enough, even if you play well.

I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

TT can play AJ to a profit. I can't, I think. It's a difference in post-flop skill. He will lose less than I will. He'll make more than I will. His profit potential is higher. (But I'm working at it.)

Xhad · #23 05-29-2007, 02:41 PM

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I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

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So...you pfr, get called, then get called on a A73 raimbow board and are worried about this scenario? You might be a nit if...

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I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

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AJo is about on par with KQo which is almost always playable UTG.

PokrLikeItsProse · #24 05-29-2007, 03:39 PM

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Ok.

A. Limping AA utg as a death wish may be an exaggeration, but it's certainly a bad play in LLHE. Get those bets in there when they are calling small bets. They usually aren't around when you want them to put in big bets.

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It is not "certainly a bad play" at LLHE, although it often is. For example, I've been known to do it at LLHE when I thought there was a good chance that I could get a limp-reraise in against unobservant, and I think it can make sense in that context. What matters is how your opponents play, not the stakes you are playing.

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B. AJ in EP--

I believe few players are good enough post-flop to know where they're. If you raise and are called in LP, does he have AK or AQ? If an A comes, you bet and villain calls?

For all the times you might win a small pot--single pair hands win few big pots--you will lose a lot of pots, thereby offsetting your wins. Plus or minus? Close enough, even if you play well.

I'm guessing that AJ is only slightly better long-term than my nemesis, KJ, a hand that appears far better than it ever seems to be.

TT can play AJ to a profit. I can't, I think. It's a difference in post-flop skill. He will lose less than I will. He'll make more than I will. His profit potential is higher. (But I'm working at it.)

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If you always bet out when an ace flops and can never fold top pair when you get drawn out or are slightly outkicked, then I wouldn't be surprised if it is an unprofitable hand for you. Are you one those people who whines that AK is a drawing hand, so you shouldn't raise it from EP?

You limp with AJo at a tighter table partly because you want to try and lure people into playing weaker aces behind you. How many players do you know who fold ATo or A9o on the button if you limp UTG+2 and get a MP caller? You raise at a loose table because they are calling anyways with their ace-rag and J8 hands.

TheCount212 · #25 05-29-2007, 05:05 PM

You raise in limit because (1) you have the best hand and everyone else is trailing and (2) you scare off some (not all) of the trashy hands out there so you don't feel like impaling yourself when they hit a miracle flop. Some people will play 73s for one bet but not two.

TheCount212 · #26 05-29-2007, 05:13 PM

I think you're exactly right. Just for the hell of it the other day at a very tight 3/6 table I raised UTG w/ J9s. Everyone folded around, the BB called, I bet out at a flop of 8JT and he folded. I made sure I showed my hand to the table. I'm usually kinda rocky but I love doing stuff like this early so I can play my game and have people call me from the get-go.

PokrLikeItsProse · #27 05-29-2007, 05:30 PM

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I think you're exactly right. Just for the hell of it the other day at a very tight 3/6 table I raised UTG w/ J9s. Everyone folded around, the BB called, I bet out at a flop of 8JT and he folded. I made sure I showed my hand to the table. I'm usually kinda rocky but I love doing stuff like this early so I can play my game and have people call me from the get-go.

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I'm not sure that does as much as you think it does, or it generally wouldn't in my case, from past experience. They don't think it's completely horrible to raise with J9s UTG because you have suited connectors and it's not a bad hand. You showed that you bet when you actually hit the flop pretty hard. Would you show them if you had missed the flop completely or if you had 65s with no flush draw on that board and c-bet the flop with no callers?

TheCount212 · #28 05-29-2007, 05:38 PM

Absolutely I would. Naturally I was disappointed to have hit the flop so hard with only 1 player in the hand, and would have checked if there were 3-4 players. And, at this table, it did raise eyebrows. It would have to be a lousier hand at most others, I admit.

TheCount212 · #29 05-29-2007, 07:11 PM

Plus, I like to make a raise UTG with a sub-par holding very early in the session to (1)see what people at the table will call 2 cold PF with and (2) leave a mistaken impression that I am loose.

Cactus Jack · #30 05-30-2007, 11:17 AM

Games I play--low limit HE in Vegas to 4/8--rarely are LAG games. The likelihood of being raised is far less than someone NOT raising AK or AQ in later positions. I have no problem raising in any position and I have no problem calling down hands where I think I may be ahead, but might also be behind. If I believe they are playing hands with thin value, I'm there. I have beaten A6 more often than lost to AK with AJ, but have lost to an AK limping in the CO. Yesterday, I wasn't in the hand, but saw JJ in middle position beat AK utg and AQ utg+1. The guy with the JJ raised after 2 limpers. It does happen.

What I'm saying is limping AA utg is more likely FPS than it is good playing. FPS is a huge leak for advancing players. I see it all the time. Many on this board are good players who know what they're doing. Many who think they are good players are really suffering from FPS. There's a very fine line between betting for value and chip spewage. I don't always find that line and stay on the right side of it. I think there are others in the same shape.