idiot!

[LeadbellyDan]

Given that villain capped preflop and hero capped the flop, what hands other than JJ are we hoping to value raise when villain donks the turn? Surely our equity is nowhere near high enough to raise even if we assume we're beating BB.

[vmacosta]

"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot. This is pretty basic stuff do yourself a favor and corroborate with others you respect cuz obv you're not understanding miles and I.

[milesdyson]

Yeah if you're like a 20% favorite against the bettor, the pot has to be unrealistically huge to raise to protect yourself from ~5 outers in the third player's hand.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

Given that villain capped preflop and hero capped the flop


[/ QUOTE ]

So this freaked me out and I went back to the original post. I messed it up. He capped flop and I called.

One day I will sort things out so that the machine I play my poker on and the machine I post from are in the same town. Then I will be able to do that "hand history" thing and avoid this kind of stupidity.

Apologies for the mispost.

Anyway, if the hand played as posted, I totally agree that it looks like UTG has a king and reads me for an overpair so I shouldn't raise.

As it was actually played I felt he had an overpair to the flop or a ten so the K didn't hurt me. I really didn't believe BB had anything worthwhile but could be drawing at the diamonds. Hence my turn raise. Still might be a little over the top.

But I am a total idiot for messing up the flop action. I was just too busy laughing about the post hand chat. Laughed all the way to work.

Guy.

[MacGuyV]

I'd calldown the flop 3bet. Even if raising the turn is good vs. this player why would you cap the flop then?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead an ream me, but why is the pot smaller? If BB folds and UTG calls then the pot is bigger than if you had just called and allowed BB to call.


[ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you're like a 20% favorite against the bettor, the pot has to be unrealistically huge to raise to protect yourself from ~5 outers in the third player's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


If BB has a 2 outer than you want him in because his contribution helps soften the blow when you're behind as you probably are. (Though I believe that if you knew that UTG had Jacks and BB had Eights then you should raise to get BB out or pay extravagently....you gain .7 bb by allowing them both to pay 1 bb and gain 1.3 bb by forcing BB out and having UTG pay 2 bb.)

If BB has a 5 outer then his equity is 1.5 bb. By forcing him out you gain those but have to risk 2 bb to do it. If BB calls then you gain .5 bb by risking 2 bb. So if BB calls 50% and folds 50% then you need to be ahead only 33% of the time to make raising correct. Actually, much less than that because UTG will rarely 3-bet you.

If BB has a 9 outer than raising gets you .4 bb. He's still should call but, at least, your gaining equity. But you need to be ahead 80% of the time for raising to be correct: Certainly you ahead far less than that.

If BB has 13 outs then you should definitely not raise.

I said hero should raise because BB most likely has a pair of tens and UTG has a pair of Kings (AK) and won't 3-bet. But now I think that a fd would be just as likely as top pair for BB and for that reason calling down may be better.

But I'll talk this over with my guy. Though I'd appreciate your response too.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead an ream me, but why is the pot smaller? If BB folds and UTG calls then the pot is bigger than if you had just called and allowed BB to call.



[/ QUOTE ]

I meant the pot is smallish compared to the change in equity ur hoping for. Your latest post shows that you're at least considering the right factors so looks like ur on the right track.

[Genesis]

I am either confusing some of the responses here, am flat out missing something, or just plain disagree. Facing the donk on the turn K, if we intend on putting in 2 more bets total, I don't see how raising is not better here. I don't care how many outs the 3rd player has unless it makes him a favorite to win. As long as I am ahead of him now I force him to pay extra to draw or force him out, in either scenario I gain something for the same price as calling down. So how can this not be better than calling down? Is the whole argument against this that the player who donked could 3bet and make us fold a better hand?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the whole argument against this that the player who donked could 3bet and make us fold a better hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, or make us pay 2 more bb.