limpers & button

[Absolution]

Ya, with 5 limpers you can raise any pair here. 77 is particularly nice in that it can win unimproved as well.

[mugged_off]

So I'm guessing you would raise Axs for value here as well ?

How many limpers do you need in to raise with Axs and pp's ? I'm guessing 3+ ??

[Absolution]

No, that would depend on the x. 8 or 9 would be a raise because you can sometimes win by pairing your kicker and you can win a kicker war against a limper. Low pp are easier to get away from too. If you hit you take in a huge pot. If you don't, you let it go without worry.

[Buzz-cp]

[ QUOTE ]
Raisig 77 and other mid/low pairs has been discussed at length in small stakes in the past. I'm sure a lot of good stuff can be found with the search. I think the reasoning comes down to: you have a slight equity edge, when don't flop a set and there's other action you can easily fold, you can check thru and have another shot at hitting a lot of the time, and when you do hit a set you will be paid off big (partially because it will be unexpected and partially because there will frequently be overcards that your opponents pair and pay you off with).

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes a lot of sense. I just thought of one more advantage--they can't put you on a hand. On a good day, I can see it getting checked through a big card flop. Thanks!

[Mushi056]

1. Raise. With five players you're getting odds to hit your set. Great position too.
2. Raise. This hand is strong multiway. Great implied odds, build that pot.
3. Call. Too weak multiway, but I wouldn't dump it since no one has shown any strength.
4. Raise. This would be a raise from me from middle position with any number of limpers, and a tempting coldcall from late position depending on the raiser and whether I'm first to coldcall or not. I think I usually dump it against a raise though. I'd say this hand is much stronger than the JT suited hand, and I'm definitely raising that bad boy with lots of limpers and the blinds coming along.

[jrz1972]

Raise. Raise. Call. Raise.

[hustalasta]

1. Raise
2. Call
3. Raise
4. Raise

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
*n00b question*

OK I can understand raising with hand 4. But why 1 and 2 ? We already have position, surely there's no advantage in forcing the blinds to fold, we want as many as possible in this pot don't we ??

*edit* i guess a free card is one reason, but its unlikely with this many limpers surely ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Mug; This is how I understand the issue:

If you are up against 3 opponenets, your "share of the pot" is 25%. (4 players, you contribute 1/4 of the money in the pot, let us ignore the dead SB and BB for now...) If your hand expects to win, lets give figure, of about 31% of the time, now a raise from the button with JTs is going to show a good profit. We contribute 25%, but win 31%. That's a good number, and a "VALUE" raise is in order. This is what value betting and raising is all about (and this is what Expected Value is about too) Betting for value also means betting or raising to induce calls, not folds.

So if we play 10/20 limit hold'em, get 3 limpers, we raise with JTs, we'll win 31% of the pot worth $80 (ignore SB BB) = $24.80 we only contirubuted 0.25 X $80.0 = $20. We've made 4.80, or 6%. see? We can also include implied odds to further up this number, but also subract extra bets we need to make on every street. blah blah

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Sevens are a clear raise. Same goes for JTs. I call with ATo. KJs is a clear raise.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill, my head just exploded.

How the hell do we play the 77 hand post-flop after a raise?

Re: KJs, in my weaker moments I may call with this hand, but I'm 100% ready to raise it from now on, and I will,thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have a tendancy to raise ATO when:

-I have less than 6 or 7 limpers... if I have this many, I like to call.

-any of the limpers are tight with PFRs in the 6-7% range
(Edit: this would make me fold, not call).
-blind steal situations (duh, though I guess at a jackpot table you might want to call in some situations)

-I'm likely to get the button

-The blinds are likely to fold.

-I'm in late to late-middle position (otherwise I muck it)

Now, over the last 80k hands I've gotten this 739 times (small sample size for this particular hand), but I've managed to make 0.16bb/hand using this approach. This isn't filtered for blind situations, etc. Also, it's possible that a different approach would earn more.

A9o is slightly profitable for me, but A8o and under are in the red I think (some of them by a lot). This is a major leak of mine (ace-mid to ace-little unsuited).

The nasty part when you're playing something like A8o is that you're playing a hand with sometimes as little as three outs and it's really tough to figure out how to play it.

--Dave.

If you've already answered the 77 question to someone else, thanks. Ditto ATo. I've only got as far as your post so far.

--Dave.

[Salva135]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, with 5 limpers you can raise any pair here. 77 is particularly nice in that it can win unimproved as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm totally missing this. You would raise *any* pair here -- even 22? Against 5 limpers? We assume all are calling, and half of our pairs only have set value. In particular, how are 7s going to win unimproved against 5 other players seeing the flop?

Is it me, or isn't this an excellent opportunity to limp on the button and see a flop for a set? Your pot equity edge is minimal at best here, could be terrible if you have people limping in with 88 or 99.

Everyone who is advocating raising with 77 (or lower, as some are suggesting) and FIVE limpers needs to throw out a serious argument as to why this is a good move. 3 limpers, maybe I raise, and 2 or less I certainly will. But 5??