Thoughts Regarding the Maniac Rebuy Strategy

[matrix]

I loooooooooooove the stars $3 rebuy - I go nuts for the 1st hour. all-in EVERY hand for 1st orbit if no callers I always show - unless I have a genuine monster - then wait till you get hands with potential mid os connectors/SC/suited 1 gappers before going all-in. Calling any all-in if there are 2 or more all-ins in front of you after I hit 12k or so or I have spanked 20 buyins - switch to supertight mode and pick off loads more chips when I hit a great hand - I find the last 10 mins is great for this as often people rush to double through and if you have a big stack you can call off t3k against people racing you frequently with junk - recently I find it rare if I get to 1st break with less than t30k. Once I had t73k at first break [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

its so much fun - where else in poker can you quadruple through with 95o ? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You only need to get lucky once before you gear down a little.

2nd hour assuming my stack is $30k plus I limp every unraised flop and usually stack a few people playing junk hands that hit hard - I will call a up to 4BB raise from anyone with a small/medium stack playing any 2 - and hope the flop comes rags and I make a goofy straight or 2pair and stack their TPNK or overpairs. Again lots of fun - tho I get a lot of abuse from table coaches. I won't do this to good players or bigger stacks than mine as I frequently come unstuck and get knocked out.

6/10 times this takes me to 3rd break with ~70k after this I calm down and try playing poker.

This is where my game hits a downturn as most of the players still in can play better poker than I can with deep stacks [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] and quite often I am that guy overplaying and pushing his bad hands straight into some grateful patient players nuts...

I finish ITM about half the time - best finish to date was ~100th - am going to win this one day though...

I don't know if this is great strategy or not - but it works for me - all I need to do is nail down my game at later levels - when to push - when not to push and I ought to start placing a whole lot better...

[DWarrior]

Another possible thing to consider for the better players is time spent doing other stuff. I'm just switching over from cash to tournaments now, so I don't go beyond $50 buy-ins, usually sticking to $20 and $11 RAs (no big wins yet, only first couple of weeks), but I can see how someone like zeejustin wouldn't want to bother playing a 3k stack in a $10 buy-in beyond the first hour when the average is 6.5k, when he can just hop into the next $100 buy-in. Besides, I don't know how serious the top players take these tournaments, are they just playing for the win or do they really care about squeezing out a few dollars of EV in these small events?

It's kind of similar to me playing on the bubble and early in the money, I can freely steal because the $10-$40 win is meaningless to me, so I personally don't care about avoiding a gamble to gain a couple of extra bucks, whereas a lot of players seem to be crazy about "finishing up", even if "up" is $.14.

Same with Daniel Negreanu. Beyond merely getting the first prize money, there are a ton more incentives that come with being 1st: the bracelet, sponsorship deals, leaderboard rankings, resume, that it makes sense for the top players to play strictly for 1st place. When Sklansky advocated that using such a strategy passes up EV, he did not account for all the addons today's big tournaments receive.

[bigfishead]

Well I'm not a rebuy maniac. Tho I profess they are very profitable....for me! I decided to take a reading off my poker tracker results on stars. I have only been on stars since 11/15 and I just dont have the time to play that many so take it with a grain of salt.

Over this period of 40 $5.00, $10.00, & $30.00 rebuy tournys, these are some of the stats I looked at:

ITM finishes: 35%
avg # of rebuys for myself: 2.1 (including add-ons)
ROI: 989%
VPIP during rebuy period: 20.19%

Overall vpip 17.99%

Now some points or thoughts in regard to above stats.

Zero tourny wins. Three seconds, & 1 third place finish but not in the 45k event. These 4 top 3 finishes had 245($10r), 126($30r), 1188(5r), 711($10r), participants.

Four of these last 40 tourneys involved me getting busted out in 10th, 11th, and 20th places when there was absolutely no big need to get all my chips all-in. However, I had decided to not worry about "bubbling" the next lvl in $$ for a shot at a large top 3 stack. I think this is -EV thinking and have decided to stop doing this.

Mason gave me Sklanskys tournament book years ago just before it was available to be purchased. With that in mind it was before the "boom". The biggest thing that I remind myself of is something David wrote to the effect of: Better tournament players will wait till the have a large edge before getting the chips in while poorer players MUST take any small edge they may have to accumulate chips. I truly believe this applied back then and even more so today. But from a purely long-term ROI view.

One example is just from memory so it isnt an absolute, but at least 2 of my final tables over the last 2 months I saw 9% total flops. I prefer to be around 11-12%. But obviously I took a fair amount of pots that were just blinds and ante's and the flops were in more key situations, with an edge, generally a decent edge, not a 2-4% edge.

I have actually even quit a couple of these rebuy tourneys during the rebuy period. These were odd times when I had gone up against HUGE HUGE dogs numerous times and got out drawn sickly 3 or more times during the rebuy period and decided todays "luck factor" was not with me. These were spots like getting it all-in with AKs vs KQo, AA vs KK or AK, AKs vs KJo, AA vs K10o with K high flop 3 ways(both of them had a K)etc. Tho an oddity on the small scale, I will sometimes figure that today isnt my day when I lose 4 or more of these during the rebuy period.

However, when I see a true maniac at the starting table, (I have seen them make 50+ rebuys) I will stack off with as little as A10o against them. Rarely do I get another player in these spots as it seems like the table sees "tight boy" getting involved.

I am actually begining to wonder if I have been on a small rush or have just been playing well or a combination of both to a lessor degree. I havent actually had a 1st place finish untill 2 weeks ago at a small tournament at Binions in 17+ months. But alot of that time was at Party. I believe that after the rebuy period the players at stars are alot better than at party which means fewer bullets to have to dodge. This lends towards better overall finishes for me.

I was recently talking to Scott Fischman about this topic of quality of players between the two sites. He believed without a doubt that the players on stars were overall better tournament players and that made it harder for him to win more $$. Part of this also had to do with the structure. The lack of antes at PP and the blinds being less during the latter hours.

What that tells me is that accumulating large stacks is paramount for players like him who like to see alot of flops and push smaller edges harder. But on stars, because of the blinds and the better players combined, "lotsa floppers" get punished do to the somewhat higher aggression and the lack of post flop action therfore fewer hands getting paid off when they hit.

Does any of this make sense? I have no idea. But as I write this stuff these were the thoughts that come to mind.

Go ahead folks!! Keep making them 10-20 rebuys for me!!

Regards

[bigfishead]

Heres a perfect example of how to play the maniac rebuys!!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t1280)
MP2 (t2250)
MP3 (t3130)
CO (t1320)
Button (t4210)
Hero (t2930)
BB (t2890)
UTG (t4670)
UTG+1 (t10320)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t1400</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t1320 (All-In), Button calls t1400, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t2930</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t1530, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t4210</font>, UTG+1 calls t1280.

Flop: (t12710) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t12710) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t12710) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t12710

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and fives).
UTG+1 has 9d Ad (one pair, fives).
CO has Qd Ac (one pair, fives).
Button has Qs Jc (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins t12710. </font>

[TwistedEcho]

Forget whats the BEST way - pushing those suited cards and sucking out is SO fun i couldn't play tight even if i wanted... its just boring to fold lots, and rebuy period is a time where you can go nuts and it really doesn't matter.

[bigfishead]

Well for me it's about making money. These rebuys events have soooo big an overlay from donkeys that they are highly profitable in my mind. I'm not in it for fun. I look at these small buy-in rebuys as a great "game selection" choice. Lowest risk with a very nice return IMO.

[Jurollo]

I will post my stats from January on rebuys here in a little bit, the maniac strategy has a few HUGE advantages once you hit 2nd hour...
A) You table image becomes very weak
B) You stack your table with chips (assuming you dont get moved)
C) You could get a hold of a LARGE stack for 2nd hour (especially if you are very LAGGY early pushes with real hands will get called later on in the 1st hour in HUGE pots

[TwistedEcho]

Meh, it depends. You kinda lost me on your post when you got to leaving during rebuy periods because you lost a few hands....

However, on some site like Absolute poker, people gamble SO much less, and the rebuy/addon per person is much less than other sites. So it makes it less profitable to play the wild maniac gambler, as you can often be stuck so much you need top 6 to make money etc.

In tournaments like the stars 45k, the 5/3r i think it is profitable to play a fairly loose and wild rebuy period to try to accumulate chips. Especially in the 3/5 where the play is so bad, you want to have a big stack for when you get into a big pot with the other big stacks - generally players play the deepstack poker so badly in the first 2 hours that i want enough chips to win the big pots when they get allin for 100+bb stacks with JJ or AQ against my AA, or when i have a set vs their overpair.

I used to play then tight when i had a lower BR, now i can afford to rebuy, in my opinion getting the biggest stack however possible is what you should do (some tables the wild push any2 doesn't work well, some it does)

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
I will post my stats from January on rebuys here in a little bit, the maniac strategy has a few HUGE advantages once you hit 2nd hour...
A) You table image becomes very weak
B) You stack your table with chips (assuming you dont get moved)
C) You could get a hold of a LARGE stack for 2nd hour (especially if you are very LAGGY early pushes with real hands will get called later on in the 1st hour in HUGE pots

[/ QUOTE ]

And what I like is seeing a table with 50-80 rebuys worth of chips after the break and taking a portion of those chips. I dont want to dump 20 rebuys and get moved to a tight ass bunch...but I do so love being at a table where there are lots of chips to be had.

Trust me I know exactly what you mean Justin. I just prefer to take advantage of these types. Tho they got my ass tonight. We had a guy with 60/35 numbers and he kept hitting his miracle outs. Truly sick. Even with only 1 min left b4 the break he called 12k of his 14k stack preflop vs a raise, re-raise two all-ins with 87s. Yea he got there, just Quad 7's, but hey...those things happen too.

Tonight the sad part for me was when I got involved 3 times with 50%ers they had QQ or better!! NOW they gotta have a real hand? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ellizizcute]

I do employ the maniac strategy, not being that of a player like ZeeJustin but I do find that giving the table a lot of chips helps. I can walk into a table and shove the first 10 hands and not get any calls, but the tighter players begin to loosen up and call me with KQo and such. It helps too because if you can get them to a stack of 6k-9k in the first 20 minutes, pick up aces and bust their stack, they too start employing the maniac strategy and end up giving you, and the table more chips to play with. It also helps build a better table image as they see you as one who doesn't care about the results and one who is willing to gamble, so if your table stays after the break, you do indeed get a lot of weird calls claiming they put you on draws and such..