60-120 Hand Against Tony Ma

[mike l.]

with AQ you can suck out on JJ. a lot of uber tighties will 3 bet JJ but not TT, that's where they draw the line. AJ you can muck for one more bet and not be making an EV error. AQ is tougher. that was my thinking.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
AJ would be a no brainer fold but AQ is worth a call.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're serious, this is retarded.

[mike l.]

"there ain't a hand that I would fold for 1 more bet after I raised preflop"

well i think that's wrong. i had QJo one time and i raised and this really loose passive scared guy 3 bet and the blinds folded and i folded. he flashed me AA. it wouldve been dumb to call as that's all he could have.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
with AQ you can suck out on JJ. a lot of uber tighties will 3 bet JJ but not TT, that's where they draw the line. AJ you can muck for one more bet and not be making an EV error. AQ is tougher. that was my thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that they way you suck out on JJ with AQ (and not AJ) is by flopping a queen. The problem is that so often you are up against AA, KK, or QQ here that you'll end up losing a lot of money with these Q-high flops.

Perhaps more accurately (and alluded to in my OP), you'll win fewer bets those times you win than you'll lose those times you lose. It's just not a favorable spot to be in.

I just don't think those hands are two different. For the record, I think I'd rather have A5s than either of these hands.

Josh

[mike l.]

"I'd still try and flop a monster."

against guys who play that tight youre not going to make that much anyway even if you do flop a monster. the more i think about it the more im sure folding preflop actually is correct and i would guess andy realised that after the fact.

[J_V]

There a lot of reasons not to fold in these spots. One that doesn't get mentions is that you have an edge in that you know he is rock tight and you don't want to encourage him to try and raise more especially with him on your left. Raising and folding one time, will cause a scene, likely embarass him and ultimately make him tougher to play against. All he has to do is throw in the occasional raise against you w/ 45s and he is already a ton tougher.

[mike l.]

"The problem with this is that they way you suck out on JJ with AQ (and not AJ) is by flopping a queen. The problem is that so often you are up against AA, KK, or QQ here that you'll end up losing a lot of money with these Q-high flops."

youre right i didnt think about that. youve convinced me that folding AQ preflop wouldve been the right play. thanks.

[J_V]

You have immediate odds to flop an ace. AK may or may not be in his range, but even if it is 100% its still a call, but closer. Raise/folding draws attention to the fact that he sucks and will flip a lightbulb off in his head. We will make some money when we have the best hand. Easy call as boring and unartful as it is.

[mike l.]

"Raise/folding draws attention to the fact that he sucks and will flip a lightbulb off in his head."

when people play bad enough to have such a narrow raising range raise/folding against them once in a blue moon wont change their retardation. bad players play bad because theyre bad, it takes a LOT to change if it's even changeable.

[Michael Davis]

Clear your pm's. I don't have your # right now.

-Michael