Big hand vs. Allen Cunningham

[Nate.]

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Sorry this hand seems totally absurd to me, when you put him on such a ridiculous tight range facing an open cutoff min steal raise with all these antes in the pot.

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Because over the first 6 hours of the day he has redefined the term 'nit.' He has played less than 5% of the hands including those where people min bet against his blinds.

These were my reads at the time; he could have been card dead for 6 hours but I think that my evaluation of his play is accurate. The read could have certaintly been incorrect but if there was one player at the table who I was studying closely the entire day it was Cunningham. He was the big stack at the table all day and I wanted to be careful to get any information that I could on his play since he was in position against me. I watched everything that he did on every hand and this was my read

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Fiji --

See above.

Another bizarre and completely untenable facet of your analysis is that you seem to think that Cunningham is unaware of the fact that you have seen him fold a lot in the last six hours.

--Nate

[betgo]

No top pro folds AQ to a miniraise from CO. I don't know much about AC's play except what I saw on PPV. However, I think OP is making a mistake by looking at a tight top pro as a weak/tight nit. AC probably was card dead and was adapting his play to the situation. Sometimes LAGs underestimate tight players. Also, it seems like OP is being egotistical by thinking he has a read on a top player and his weaknesses.

[uclabruinz]

Cornell, here's a hint for playing against elite players. Be honest with yourself about what level you appear to be thinking on in the eyes of other players. Now add one level to that, and that is what level AC is probably thinking at. You seem to imply that AC is some kind of robotic, formulaic, weak/tight/nit that just looks at his cards and the board. LOL

Shoving may be good on the turn, I don't know. But your reasons for deciding it is are way out of whack.

[JoseGonzlez]

the guy won a world series event against 2700 people, FT the main event, player of the year at world series of poker 2005. you dont do that by being a weak tight nit.

What he probably does is use his super tight image to make plays and get alot of folds. He concedes his blind alot. The times he does defend its probably instafolds.
How was the table playing tons of super aggressive lags? He could have been playing tight just because of table dynamics. dont know.

[Nate.]

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Cornell, here's a hint for playing against elite players. Be honest with yourself about what level you appear to be thinking on in the eyes of other players. Now add one level to that, and that is what level AC is probably thinking at. You seem to imply that AC is some kind of robotic, formulaic, weak/tight/nit that just looks at his cards and the board. LOL

Shoving may be good on the turn, I don't know. But your reasons for deciding it is are way out of whack.

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Indeed.

I also forgot to mention a third hilarious thing about the OP, which is that as stated it's a very simple math problem with some long exposition and name-dropping added for flair. Of course the premises of the math problem are comical, but that's all it is.

I'm concerned I spent too much time bashing the OP without giving advice here.

I think the shove might be good, but because it gives you a chance to fold out a bare 9 or something like that. You can't think you're folding out two pair or better with this push -- this is a steal-defense situation and folding such a hand can't be justified on this board. Your hand should look like (often) AQ+ and (less often) some draw you picked up on the turn, but there probably won't be enough of the latter to allow him to call with 97 or whatnot.

Still, if I were in your shoes and had somehow played the hand as you did until then, I'm folding the turn, because I don't think he'll pay off enough on the river if I hit (though I think there's a decent chance my K is good) and because I think that there are just a few too many hands he isn't folding in his range.

--Nate

[Cornell Fiji]

Why hasn't anyone even considered what hand ranges AC is putting me on here?

Isn't that really the crux of the argument... if my range is ahead of his hand he should fold, if not he should call. Keeping in mind that he is very risk adverse and if the decission is borderline then he will fold.

So here is the hand from his point of view...


A tight player who has done nothing out of line for 6 hours miniraises preflop to 4,000. Allen knows that i know he has been weak with his blinds.

Allen has me on what range after my pfr?
I would suppose he has me on a pretty wide range from a slowplayed big pair to AK to A3s to complete garbage


The flop comes down A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Allen checks and I bet 6k
I make a standard continuation bet against a tight player so Allen might think that I am trying to take the pot down with any two that I preflop raised with

The turn is 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Allen bets 15k and I go all in.

What does AC think about my range now? The one time that I made an all in call earlier it took me 3 minutes to reach my decission and I have not done anything out of line all tournament. He knows that I know that he has been tight and he probably thinks that this is the level that I am thinking on

I think that I know what he has my range at after the push but I am interested in hearing what you all think that he thinks that I have after my push.

Put yourself in Allen's shoes. Both you and the villain (me) have been tight for 6 hours and on this hand you have shown strength and the villain has shown complete disregard for your strength and has come over the top for his tournament life. What do you have the villain on?

[registrar]

Did you push all in quickly?

[Cornell Fiji]

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Did you push all in quickly?

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Yes, hesitated for about 2 seconds (while I hesitated I quickly counted down one stack of 20 1k chips, lined it next to the next 20k stack and the purple 10k stack and verbally announced "all in")

[registrar]

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Did you push all in quickly?

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Yes, hesitated for about 2 seconds (while I hesitated I quickly counted down one stack of 20 1k chips, lined it next to the next 20k stack and the purple 10k stack and verbally announced "all in")

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As a matter of interest, what would it say to you if a tight player pushed all in that fast on that board?

[Cornell Fiji]

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As a matter of interest, what would it say to you if a tight player pushed all in that fast on that board?

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I would think that he had a very strong hand that would not like a lot of river cards.

Set, top 2 pair, maybe A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Since I had not been out of line so far I do not think that he thought that I was on a bluff or just at draw. I had taken a long time on my marginal all in call and he probably thought that I was risk adverse therefore I thought that my quick push showed a lot of confidence in my hand.

I do not think that there was any chance that he thought that I had lone clubs with my quick all-in.