A lesson in kickers - Page 3

acidca · #21 09-23-2006, 04:45 PM

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Ie, ace jack is close in value with king queen . They both add up to 25 .

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What?

omgwtfnoway · #22 09-23-2006, 04:53 PM

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The problem with most players is that they use pokerstove too often . It's not about certain percentages that matter ,it's about which hands will earn more money in the long run .

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how much time did you spend working out this median?
"certain percentages" help you closely estimate which hands will earn money in the long run.

you cite T9 as a better than average hand according to your ranking system and advocate raising it preflop. since when has a T been a good kicker, even headsup? if you hit the flop with that hand, what's your most likely hand? 2nd pair, maybe a weak top pair, if you get played with can you be any more confident of your hand then if you had A2 and spiked top pair? i think not.

Paxosmotic · #23 09-23-2006, 05:01 PM

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KQ > A2 because of the sum of your kickers . It is a good estimate .

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No, it ISN'T. A2 is a stronger hand than KQ.

jay_shark · #24 09-23-2006, 05:02 PM

I never said it was a good kicker . I'm just stating the obvious . 10-9 is better than a random hand preflop , so if you have position with this hand , you should raise it up .

Btw , if you're playing in a raised pot preflop , you can't be that confident in your A 2 when an ace flops . I'm sure you already know this .

Paxosmotic · #25 09-23-2006, 05:04 PM

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I never said it was a good kicker . I'm just stating the obvious . 10-9 is better than a random hand preflop , so if you have position with this hand , you should raise it up .

Btw , if you're playing in a raised pot preflop , you can't be that confident in your A 2 when an ace flops . I'm sure you already know this .

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Okay, and if an ace flops you're going to feel really secure with your KQ? This is [censored] stupid, if you can't read basic statistics, you're clearly never going to be a winning player. I'll say it one more time. A2 is a 57-43 favorite against KQ. This isn't up for discussion.

jay_shark · #26 09-23-2006, 05:05 PM

Paxo , are you implying that ace 2 has more value than king queen in heads up ?

omgwtfnoway · #27 09-23-2006, 06:05 PM

he's not implying it, he's stating it as a matter of fact

and you didn't answer my question, can you be more confident of a one pair hand holding T9 than A2? i'm not sure what you think you're imparting strategically but i feel dumber having read this thread.

jay_shark · #28 09-23-2006, 11:39 PM

If the pot has been raised preflop , then i'd rather have 10-9 if my ten pairs the board . Anytime an ace hits and the pot has been raised , then you're in kicker trouble .

By the way , all I wanted to accomplish with this post was to locate the median and nothing else . This doesn't take into account the added strength of a hand being connected like 10-9 or if the hand is suited .

kash munni · #29 09-24-2006, 02:19 AM

Hey jay I like your idea. I agree that in deep stack heads up I rather have KQ than A2.

How much heads-up do you play and what stakes?

theordinaryboy · #30 09-24-2006, 09:50 AM

hey jay

when i first read this i thought it was an interesting post, unusual idea, but interesting. Unfortunately no one had replied. So i was glad to see all the responses when i checked back today.

However, whilst reading the replies paxo's comments made me mad as he clearly wasn't able to understand what people were saying and was intend to keep stating the same thing.

I hope we can continue talking about the possible value of using your method. For instance you say that you should maybe only raise hands that are better than average (according to your method) but perhaps due to the massive benefit of position you should raise with hands that add up to 15 or better.

On a seperate note paxo, KQ is infintely better than A2 in a heads up situation. Why on earth are you using pokerstove as proof of your argument, no one is talking about what hand is better in an all-in situation!

When you raise with A2 you are essentially hoping to hit an A, which will happen roughly 1 in 6 times however with KQ either K or Q is good meaning you hit a good flop 1 in 3 times. Plus i find that when you do hit with A2 you rarely get payed off as villain doesnt like the A, but if you do get some action you have to worry about your kicker, which brings us back to the original post i feel.

I do not believe that in the Heads up play that i play all-in percentages are useful until you find yourself in an all-in or fold situation.