New York Times Hypocrits - Page 3

Copernicus · #21 06-28-2006, 11:21 PM

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it should be more careful about who gets to learn that sensitive information in the first place

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and then youll get whiners like the last poster that it was "secret and with no oversight", even though some members of Congress knew about it.

New001 · #22 06-28-2006, 11:52 PM

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it should be more careful about who gets to learn that sensitive information in the first place

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and then youll get whiners like the last poster that it was "secret and with no oversight", even though some members of Congress knew about it.

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Then let the whiners be whiners. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] I agree with him in that I would rather these things be transparent, but as long as they're not going above the law, I don't think it's a big deal at all. I do fully believe though that if something gets leaked, it's fair game for the press. Whether said press should or should not print something sensitive is a separate matter, but I believe that nothing should be inherently safe from them; go after the guys leaking rather than the press.

Machinehead · #23 06-29-2006, 12:26 AM

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So at what point do we draw the line on how many of our freedoms we sacrifice? Do we let them monitor everything we do, everything we say? Give up our rights to free speech, free press, privacy rights. What about our judicial rights? At what point do republicans say enough is enough?

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Why dont we wait till some freedom has actually been diminished before we say its too much?

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......The Patriot Act......

Copernicus · #24 06-29-2006, 12:46 AM

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So at what point do we draw the line on how many of our freedoms we sacrifice? Do we let them monitor everything we do, everything we say? Give up our rights to free speech, free press, privacy rights. What about our judicial rights? At what point do republicans say enough is enough?

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Why dont we wait till some freedom has actually been diminished before we say its too much?

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......The Patriot Act......

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and how exactly have you been harmed by the patriot act?

BillUCF · #25 06-29-2006, 01:06 AM

This has been a good debate. Thanks for everyone for keeping it civil. Including myself.

I don't know exactly where the line between freedom and national security lies, but the NY Times is walking a thin line. This story would never have printed during WWII, but then in many ways we are fighting a very different kind of war.

I think it is wise to err on the side of caution, like folding medium pair in a NL Hold'em cash game on the flop when out of position, 2 players yet to act, and the pot is small.

Machinehead · #26 06-29-2006, 01:08 AM

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and how exactly have you been harmed by the patriot act?

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So I have to be harmed to have my freedoms reduced?

All the government has to do is label you a terrorist and you have no rights. Do they have any criteria they have to meet to label you a terrorist? No. So they can do it to anybody. They can detain you forever if they feel like it without ever having to charge you with a crime where you'll most likely be tortured and sodomized daily.

Am I supposed to trust the government's discretion on this? Well I don't. I'm not supposed to, thats why we have these rights in the first place.

P.S. I just threw in the torture and sodomy part for fun.

Machinehead · #27 06-29-2006, 01:09 AM

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I don't know exactly where the line between freedom and national security lies

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Ask Ben Franklin.

Copernicus · #28 06-29-2006, 02:36 AM

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and how exactly have you been harmed by the patriot act?

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So I have to be harmed to have my freedoms reduced?

All the government has to do is label you a terrorist and you have no rights. Do they have any criteria they have to meet to label you a terrorist? No. So they can do it to anybody. They can detain you forever if they feel like it without ever having to charge you with a crime where you'll most likely be tortured and sodomized daily.

Am I supposed to trust the government's discretion on this? Well I don't. I'm not supposed to, thats why we have these rights in the first place.

P.S. I just threw in the torture and sodomy part for fun.

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I will go back to the EV discussion. The probability of the Patriot Act being used to harm you times the value of that harm (including emotional distress value, poor baby) vs the increased probability of a terrorist attack times the cost of that to you.

If you think they are even within orders of magnitude of each other, you are grossly underestimating the war we are in and the capabilities of the enemy.

hmkpoker · #29 06-29-2006, 02:45 AM

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I don't know exactly where the line between freedom and national security lies

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No one does. Different people have different beliefs on where that line should be placed. Some people want more freedom and less security, and others the other way around.

We do have fifty states. There's no reason why every single person in America should have to live under the same laws.

Copernicus · #30 06-29-2006, 02:49 AM

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I don't know exactly where the line between freedom and national security lies

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No one does. Different people have different beliefs on where that line should be placed. Some people want more freedom and less security, and others the other way around.

We do have fifty states. There's no reason why every single person in America should have to live under the same laws.

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we'll remember that the next time you whine about freedoms under the Constitution being eroded. Why should we all have to live under such an antiquated legal framework.

Youve made it clear that you are very young, and dont have much of a clue about whats going on around you now, much less of history. Children should be seen and not heard.