Ed Miller/Gary Carson debate

[Number27]

I'm sorry to say Ed that I think this denigration of attitude that you sense has more to do with the fact that there are more people involved with poker now than before and the majority of people are hateful or jealous towards people more successful than they are.

I wouldn't let it bum you out because you're likely to run into it this attitude in any large field of work in which you endeavor be it poker, business, or some other field.

[jrbick]

I have to agree with Ed. I've been blocking chat online more often than I ever have. I can't even count the number of times I've been told to die, that my mother is going to die, that I'm a [censored], that I'm the N word, that I'm handicapped, etc etc etc. I mean, it doesn't bother me that people get upset, mad, etc. Sure, they're going to. I'd just rather not see that chat. I like having chat on because people do give out a lot of information there at times and I like to be cordial when someone tells me nh or good job; asks about where I live (although that might fit into the former category moreso).

And around here in the forums it's nearly impossible to get serious answers to questions OR it's full of redundant questions that are easily answered with a google search or forum search. Around here, though, and probably on online poker as well; I suspect it's more to do with age/maturity than anything else. I'm 25, married, expecting my first child any time now. I probably expect more than I should from the majority of posters around here. That being said, I also wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the most mature, responsive, helpful posters around here fall into the same median age/maturity that bogs it down. So, kudos.


K, wtf am I responding to this for. Here's to being up late, tired, and sappy. Cheers.

jrbick

[El Diablo]

Ed,

While there's a lot of stuff that could definitely be better, I think the core elements that cause the problems you speak of stem from the fundamental nature of the game. It's a game built around conflict with people competing against each other trying to take all of their money. I believe a large part of the change you're seeing is due to the fact that (at least in the games I play) a higher and higher percentage of people seem to be doing this for their livelihood now, leading to a greater degree of stress and conflict in many cases. In the few years that I've been playing, it's been very clear to me that along w/ a lot of really great people, the poker world also contains many of the sleaziest, scuzziest characters around. Sure it would be a more pleasant environment if this element was not part of the game, but I just consider it part of the deal. Now, that's not exactly what you're talking about here, but I think it's very related.

[MicroBob]

I think it's also worth noting that it's easy to not be one of those with a really lousy attitude when one actually knows how to play and wins consistently.
The losing gets to people naturally.

Those who are winning just wonder why everybody else is so miserable and megative. Well, part of it is due to them losing so much.

Although I think Ed also has some people whom he KNOWS are winning players in mind.


Anyway, I've never been THAT much of a fan of playing live partly because of the meanness and attitudes (not sure if it's any worse now or not).
Although I haven't played live for a few weeks now and I have been in a bit of a mood to give it a try again sometime.



I don't feel like treading over to RGP and wading through everything. If somebody wanted to copy 1 or 2 of the highlights I wouldn't mind.


If NPA were to debate Gary Carson I think it should cover a variety of topics with zero poker relation.
They would not know which side of the topic they will be arguing until they take the podium.
time format to be worked out later.
Topic 1 - The American League is 'better' because they use the designated-hitter
Topic 2 - A flat-tax would be good for the U.S.
Topic 3 - George Bush walks funny


Judging panel from American Idol will determine the winning debater in each category.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed,

While there's a lot of stuff that could definitely be better, I think the core elements that cause the problems you speak of stem from the fundamental nature of the game. It's a game built around conflict with people competing against each other trying to take all of their money. I believe a large part of the change you're seeing is due to the fact that (at least in the games I play) a higher and higher percentage of people seem to be doing this for their livelihood now, leading to a greater degree of stress and conflict in many cases. In the few years that I've been playing, it's been very clear to me that along w/ a lot of really great people, the poker world also contains many of the sleaziest, scuzziest characters around. Sure it would be a more pleasant environment if this element was not part of the game, but I just consider it part of the deal. Now, that's not exactly what you're talking about here, but I think it's very related.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true. Along with out of control egos in the cardrooms.

I find the cool people that are pleasant to play with stand out quite a bit. It irks me when they get berated constantly. Hey, they're just playing the game trying to enjoy themselves. Poker seems to really bring out the pettiness and ugliness in people. Ugly losers and ugly winners that throw it in everyones face how great they are because they just hit their miracle cards. I actually could give a sh*t less about alot of the people I play against.(which kinda sucks really so I kinda see Ed's point that way) I find it refreshing when I'm playing against players that just enjoy playing. Regardless of how good they are.

On a monetary note: Alot of these new, wannabe f-tards should learn where the money comes from in this game.

It's nice to hear Carson hasn't changed much.

b

[NewUser2006]

Heh... just checked out RGP and noticed a thread that was bashing the Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

Carson basically says that is worthless, then goes on to make an argument in SUPPORT of it (putting your opponents on a range of hands then making your decision based on that).

I don't understand what he doesn't understand about it!

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]


I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason, I felt like sharing it tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr. Miller,

Yes a lot of people here treat each other pretty badly. It's a byproduct of the game of poker, and also of holding discussions with people you hardly know. That's how other people are. I would remind you that the only thing you can control is how you are.

Also, while a lot of poker players are seem mean on the surface, those are just words. At least they tend not to burn other people's breakfasts.

[sigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow.. they're talking about me a lot today on RGP.

Lately I've been bummed about poker in general, and it's because of how negative things are getting. The comments at the table are getting more vicious and personal, IMO. Everyone's a "donkey" these days... everyone's got a chip on their shoulder.

Lawmakers are trying to criminalize poker in multiple venues. That gets me down.

I've never posted on RGP in my life, and apparently they gotta blast me in multiple threads today. I guess.

Everyone's busto. Let's talk smack about people. OOT's full of snarky BS... Sure, it's clever one-liners and stuff, but just because people laugh at it doesn't mean it's not still really negative.

I'm not saying I'm an angel or anything... particularly a couple of years ago (and still to some extent now), I used to flame and disrespect with the best of them. Well, with the mediocre of them at least. That sucks.

I can't undo my past, but I apologize today to anyone I was negative to. I've really tried my best the last year or two to be positive when I can and to keep my yap shut when I can't be positive.

I feel like I've matured in the last couple of years... and in that maturing process, I've lost some of the love I used to feel for poker. Reading 2+2 kinda makes me sad sometimes. I dunno...

It's late and I'm tired, and I'm sure this will look sappy in the morning. But I think there's way too much hate in poker these days. I think that sucks. I hope people agree with me and try to make poker a little more positive in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, those queers sure messed you up bad. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
I've just been feeling more bummed out in general with how people in poker treat each other over the past year or so. Just a general feeling of, "This sucks." For whatever reason,

[/ QUOTE ]

And that's why I don't bother with the vast majority of the forums on 2+2. And why I keep chat turned off when playing online.

[MaxPower]

I always like to bash those who are constantly complaining that 2+2 is going downhill, but I have finally realized that certain forums on here are no better than RGP. There is a different feeling on these forum than there once was.