How ugly is this call with KK, 10/20 deep.

[Requin]

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I think TT is significantly more powerful than AA or KK here and should be played accordingly. I think checking behind with TT would be a mistake whereas with AA or KK, it might be OK (though a bit inferior for the reasons Bld explained). AA and KK are more or less the same. ... Other than that, I agree with everything Bld said.

With QQ/JJ, I think checking behind on the turn is a more serious option.

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Are you checking with TT to balance out the times you check with QQ/JJ to control pot size?

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know how much you need to balance that out. I mean, when you check behind on the turn its very often in order to call a river bet. So the only reason to balance it as I see it is so that opponent can't value bet AA/KK here 100% of the time when he has it. I don't think that happens often enough to make it worth checking TT on occaision. Maybe if you planned on folding QQ/JJ to a river bet more often than calling with it.

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I'm speaking in metagame purposes. If you only check with either QQ/JJ or TT it will be pretty exploitable IMO. I figured it was something like this: bet with AA/KK or air, check with QQ/JJ or TT.

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Yeah, I get that but HOW is it exploitable? I can't really see a way, except for the vbetting of AA/KK. I'd like someone to point out how a good opponent could exploit this in me, if I'm missing something. Have to go for now, but will check back in later.

[samoleus]

nah - not a situation to really worry about balance (since I will be betting with AA, KK, and air too, I won't be predictable); I just about always bet TT here.

[luckychewy]

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nah - not a situation to really worry about balance (since I will be betting with AA, KK, and air too, I won't be predictable); I just about always bet TT here.

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I stand corrected. I was going to write out a post to explain myself but quickly realized I was wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[raptor517]

gosh.. my post flop game must be way too tight. in general, i feel that i cehck behind this turn a LOT with KK. if not, im pretty much bet folding to shove. it just doesnt seem like there are many hands that pink_razor can have that KK does well against. its either a suited connector or something that has kings killed, and i just think the probability of AA, 2 pair, or a set are much hihgher than a goofy draw. meh, i guess im a big dumb nit. holla

[GrinDedDown]

I like a bet of 3/4ths to a full pot bet. By flat-calling, you don't really knwo were you stand. The reason I would bet this is that he may have called with a smaller pair PF and thinks you could easily have overs. He may have a pair higher than the board such as 99+. The good thing about betting this flop is that he may raise your bet and pay you off. If he has a small PP that didn't set or overpair to board, he would probably raise to prevent you from drawing while also finding out where he stands. A flat-call would actually be the scariest play by him in this instance as he could very well be doing this with a set in hopes that he can draw you into the hand. Another possibility is that he does have a piece of the flop with a draw and would more than likely raise any bet you make on the flop in an attmept to shut you out.

So, IMO, a good-sized bet on the flop should accomplish numerous things for you and could allow you to win a big pot. The main reason for this play is that with a hand like this you do not want the pressure to be on you but on your opponent. By flat-calling on the flop, you are very suceptible to a turn bet (more than likely a big one too) and their is more pressure on you.

The play you made however is not that bad, but you have to be almost positive that he has JJ or QQ in order for this to be the correct play. Him having AA could make sense, but more than likely since this is a relatively scary board for overpairs, which could make him as scared as you with KK. If he does have AA, I don't really think you could help but lose some good money in this situation. If he had AA, he must be able to put you onto JJ+ and played it well.

-GrinDed-