The Poker Tournament Formula by Arnold Snyder...

[Red_Diamond]

Finished reading a couple more chapters today. Maybe I'm overlooking some things but in his one little table he has 4-flush listed as 4.2 to 1 for pot odds. That's fine, but they why in the same table and rest of his talk he lists a gut-shot at 11 to 1? If the former is so accurate, shouldn't the later be as well? Then again I'm confused later when a full-house draw from a set is listed as 8 outs. Scratched my head on this a few times, then realized maybe he is taking the 7 for turn, combining this from 10 on river, then averaging it to give 8.5 which.. is close to 8?

Anyhow, maybe I'm just nit-picking far too much on the accuracy here.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
Finished reading a couple more chapters today. Maybe I'm overlooking some things but in his one little table he has 4-flush listed as 4.2 to 1 for pot odds. That's fine, but they why in the same table and rest of his talk he lists a gut-shot at 11 to 1? If the former is so accurate, shouldn't the later be as well? Then again I'm confused later when a full-house draw from a set is listed as 8 outs. Scratched my head on this a few times, then realized maybe he is taking the 7 for turn, combining this from 10 on river, then averaging it to give 8.5 which.. is close to 8?

Anyhow, maybe I'm just nit-picking far too much on the accuracy here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, you think? As I said in the other PTF thread, the book is full incorrect information.

[merc_thunder]

You should change your name to "SplawnDartsYouThink?"

I disagree and think this book is a good read with some helpful advice for fast online tournaments such as the SnG.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree and think this book is a good read with some helpful advice for fast online tournaments such as the SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really hope you don't mean one-table SnG's.

[SplawnDarts]

[ QUOTE ]
You should change your name to "SplawnDartsYouThink?"

I disagree and think this book is a good read with some helpful advice for fast online tournaments such as the SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you feel about the quoted sections above that are clearly in error?

[Quanah Parker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For those who play in higher buy-in tournaments where the blinds increase at a slower pace, Arnold Snyder himself concedes that his strategy becomes less useful, and to play in these tournaments you need to develop your poker playing skills to be more competitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an exaggeration to paraphrase Snyder like this, but I'll do it for affect: "If you want to do well in the slower tournaments, read Harrington." (I'm reading between the lines based on his high recommendation of Harrington's books and other comments.)

So we essentially have a situation where Snyder implicitly agrees with Harrington, but doesn't bother rehashing his advice, and Harrington implicitly agrees with Snyder, but doesn't fully flesh out his M strategy to incorporate rate of change, which is what Snyder has done.

Poker is an evolving field of study, in a sense no different from physics or medicine or... Advances are made more quickly when the contributors complement and feed off each other, rather than dogmatically trying to protect their own turf.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I think Harrington and Snyder should be required reading anyone playing online MTT's.

[springb0ks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree and think this book is a good read with some helpful advice for fast online tournaments such as the SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really hope you don't mean one-table SnG's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? I have used the position system in single table sng's to great effect, and have finished in the money very often.

[Red_Diamond]

I don't mean to overstate the obvious, but at a STSS doesn't EVERYONE have a decent chance to finish in the money very often?

Anyhow, very busy as of late so I haven't read much further, I suspect I am roughly halfway through the book at this point. I will be looking forward to going through the rest of it very soon. I am actualy busy finishing off Stud for advanced players, but perhaps I should be going over Kill Phil instead so I can compare these two as they sort of run along the same paths.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
You think? While that might be a winning approach under certain circumstances with expert postflop skills, his book devalues expert postflop skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

His book doesn't devalue postflop skills. It changes the focus of them from one form to another due to the basic structure of the tournament.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who followed his advice without substantial outside info would be in serious danger of going bust.

[/ QUOTE ]

He came right out and told you you're in serious danger of going bust. You're in serious danger of going bust every time you sit down at a fast tournament. Did you not read that part of the book? In fact, he said you're much better off in terms of EV by putting yourself at risk of going broke to give you a higher chance of finishing deep in the money.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree and think this book is a good read with some helpful advice for fast online tournaments such as the SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really hope you don't mean one-table SnG's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? I have used the position system in single table sng's to great effect, and have finished in the money very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming you mean the common turbo structure one-table tournaments: The short answer is because the payout structure is so flat that playing tight early is more important than taking chances to build your stack. The players that get in and splash around - knocking each other out early - are shipping you equity in the prize pool even if you don’t increase your own stack in the first few rounds.

Preserving your chips for several rounds until you get to the push/fold stage is of much greater importance IMO than making the risky position plays designed to accumulate chips that Snyder advocates.

While position is important in these tournaments it’s not really important for the same reason Snyder stresses it. Much of the time you’re going to play a hand your entire stack is going in preflop or on the flop. Therefore, position matters in deciding what range of hands you would push with from any particular position given the current tournament situation.

As you near the bubble in these tournaments, strictly following the position play advocated by Snyder would result in making some terrible $EV plays if the other tournament factors were not also considered.

I think the book offers some valuable information for playing fast multi-table tournaments even though some of the criticism is this thread is justified. However, I believe using the strategy for fast single-table tournaments would be a huge mistake.