ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs - Page 272

jman220 · #**2711** 03-01-2006, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aside from the fact that the Model Rules do not govern in my jurisdiction, and are thus irrelevant, your analysis is so poor and libelous that I will actually respond to it at length later this afternoon (I dearly wish I could now) to show what an idiot you are.

I will make you my bitch. I don't know where you went to school, but I'm pretty sure the diploma came in the mail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I could have no way of knowing what your jurisdiction is, thus I posted under model rules, however the rules that I alluded to are pretty standard in most of the jurisdictions, with only minor differences, and not only that, you posted on an internet message board, and had electronic communications with someone who is most likely not in your jurisdiction anyway, so you may not necessarily be subject to the jurisdiction you thiink you are.

I am done arguing with you, as someone pointed out, continuing to argue with you would be inane. My earlier comment still stands, anyone who is looking for a lawyer in general would be served by getting a list of reputable lawyers from their state bar association, and not from someone trying to recruit clients from an internet message board. The fact that you need to solicit clients in this manner is very telling. Ambulance chasers are always at the bottom of the legal totem pole.

KotOD · #**2712** 03-01-2006, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm debating in a forum on a site I'm a member of. Could you please post the relevant rule? I didn't think so.

But thanks for posting: this thread certainly isn't short of ethics police.

[/ QUOTE ]

From: ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct and Code of Judicial Conduct:

notably:

[ QUOTE ]
RULE 7.1 ABA MODEL RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT

A lawyer shall not make a false or misleading communication about the lawyer or the lawyer's services. A communication is false or misleading if it:

(b) is likely to create an unjustified expectation about results the lawyer can achieve, or states or implies that the lawyer can achieve results by means that violate the Rules of Professional Conduct or other law; or

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on. This man can certainly "bring down Party" or make it cease to exist! They are corrupt! Haven't you read his rhetoric?!?!

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Exsubmariner · #**2713** 03-01-2006, 05:03 PM

OK, so I've been following this for some days now. It's been a wonderful, illuminating experience. I've gotten a crash course in how to cheat at internet poker. I've been able to do some thinking on the subject and try to advance my understanding of both the nature of internet collusion and what web sites can do about it.

In an effort to compell this thread past that waste of server space over in OOT known as the MySpace thread, I would like to start a discussion specifically about the practicality of detecting colluders.

I have learned that in order to cheat at internet poker, you don't have to be a computer whiz. Of course it helps if you are, but it isn't a resume necessity. What you need to do is to be able to get yourself multiple computers, identities and more than one internet connection. Alternatively, you could have one computer and a network of your little buddies you can collude with. If you are a good player, and your friends are good players, your activities are going to be really hard to detect. If you are multiaccounting, one might surmise that it would be realitively easy for you to get caught if two or more of your players always sat at the same games and always entered tournaments together. I have gotten the feeling, though, that the poker sites are not really looking. I don't think they want to know.

So let's take it a step further. Imagine you're Lee Jones. You run Pokerstars. If you ban a cheater and a group of his buddies, what's to stop them from simply getting new computers, new names, and coming right back and doing it again, destroying all the time and effort you put into catching the little [censored] in the first place? The answer is nothing. If someone gets busted, they can come right back and there is practically nothing you can do to stop it. Or is there? Well, an interesting thought that occured to me is the idea of databasing. What you do is keep a database of every player who comes on your site and how they play. If you catch a team of colluders, you know their method of operation. All you have to do is look for the same number of players, who all appear at about the same time as new accounts who go right back to sitting the games they sat before and doing the same tricks.

I don't really think this is as easy as it sounds. It would certainly have a cost associated with it. It would consume man hours, programers who write and modify the databases to look for different things. The price of poker would go up for the sites. It would become pretty expensive to keep your game honest.

I remember a generation of sharp kids who figured out how to cheat people in the stock market. They went to jail, got out, and are still rich. The new generation has figured out how to cheat people at internet poker. They aren't going to jail and every time they get caught, they are just going to come back and do it again under a new name.

I think that Justin Bonomo didn't start out as a cheat. I think as his experience grew, he learned from his cheating pals what they were up to and was stepping into being an uber cheat when he got outed. The thought that bothers me is that there are better cheaters out there who do not get caught. He learned from them. They are still there. What's worse is the thought that somewhere right now, there is some socially misadjusted kid out there who idolizes ZJ and has finally realized that he needs to learn how to cheat well so he can become who he wants to be.

jman220 · #**2714** 03-01-2006, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm debating in a forum on a site I'm a member of. Could you please post the relevant rule? I didn't think so.

But thanks for posting: this thread certainly isn't short of ethics police.

[/ QUOTE ]

From: ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct and Code of Judicial Conduct:

notably:

[ QUOTE ]
RULE 7.1 ABA MODEL RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT

A lawyer shall not make a false or misleading communication about the lawyer or the lawyer's services. A communication is false or misleading if it:

(b) is likely to create an unjustified expectation about results the lawyer can achieve, or states or implies that the lawyer can achieve results by means that violate the Rules of Professional Conduct or other law; or

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on. This man can certainly "bring down Party" or make it cease to exist! They are corrupt! Haven't you read his rhetoric?!?!

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I lol'd.

kdogg007 · #**2715** 03-01-2006, 05:09 PM

So he got busted for cutting corners, professionals cheat all the time, in every sport/facet of life including in business. He took the risk and paid the price of losing 100K or whatever from his PP account, and more importantly his reptuation is forever tarnished. It does not mean that he is not a skilled player. We all get greedy and tempted to cheat at one point or another, who knows how many of us would cheat if given the opportunity...the temptation is very strong. ZJ is still very strong player in my books.

jman220 · #**2716** 03-01-2006, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aside from the fact that the Model Rules do not govern in my jurisdiction, and are thus irrelevant, your analysis is so poor and libelous that I will actually respond to it at length later this afternoon (I dearly wish I could now) to show what an idiot you are.

I will make you my bitch. I don't know where you went to school, but I'm pretty sure the diploma came in the mail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I just thought of a better way to settle this, that will end what I'm sure would be a neverending back and forth. You post your name, bar#, and home state. I'll report you to the bar for misconduct. If you're cleared, I'll admit I was wrong. Deal?

KotOD · #**2717** 03-01-2006, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So let's take it a step further. Imagine you're Lee Jones. You run Pokerstars. If you ban a cheater and a group of his buddies, what's to stop them from simply getting new computers, new names, and coming right back and doing it again, destroying all the time and effort you put into catching the little [censored] in the first place? The answer is nothing. If someone gets busted, they can come right back and there is practically nothing you can do to stop it. Or is there? Well, an interesting thought that occured to me is the idea of databasing. What you do is keep a database of every player who comes on your site and how they play. If you catch a team of colluders, you know their method of operation. All you have to do is look for the same number of players, who all appear at about the same time as new accounts who go right back to sitting the games they sat before and doing the same tricks.

[/ QUOTE ]

A big part of this is the sites themselves realizing that they can't make inroads in this battle without coming together. Sharing info and creating the black book for online poker should be very high on the list. Secondly, coming together should help defray costs if the sites make it a collective effort.

Beyond that, punitive measures must be taken with each person caught. I know that the sites don't want to advertise that they've busted cheaters for a number of reasons: They don't want to show the world how many cheaters there are on their sites every day; they don't want to tip their hands to the cheaters by possibly revealing some of their methodolgies; they don't want to let other cheaters know that they are on to certain people. Fine. I get that. However, they do have to publicize a catch every once in a while. I see why they did it with these two -- the methods of cheating were rudimentary at best. But I feel that they need to come forward about once a month and reveal a catch.

Lastly, they must be stringent at EVERY LEVEL of cheating. From chat-cheating ("Hey check it down, he's all in, let's try and bust him") which Stars is VERY lax on, to soft-playing, there are a number of "little white cheats" that the sites let people get away with. Start cracking down at every turn. Remove the slippery slopes.

KotOD · #**2718** 03-01-2006, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So he got busted for cutting corners, professionals cheat all the time, in every sport/facet of life including in business. He took the risk and paid the price of losing 100K or whatever from his PP account, and more importantly his reptuation is forever tarnished.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's fraud and grand larceny. These are felonies.

[ QUOTE ]
It does not mean that he is not a skilled player.

[/ QUOTE ]

To which of the six "he's" do you refer?

[ QUOTE ]
We all get greedy and tempted to cheat at one point or another, who knows how many of us would cheat if given the opportunity...the temptation is very strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you're this dense, I'm going to assume youth here (sorry to the poster that gets raged up about blaming youth). ALL of the legit posters here have the opportunity to cheat every day. NONE of them cheated. You act like JJ was being pulled over to the dark side and resisted terribly until he made one mistake. HE HAD SIX ACCOUNTS. IT WAS A METHODICAL ATTEMPT TO CHEAT THOSE PLAYERS HE WAS UP AGAINST. This was not a one-time mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
ZJ is still very strong player in my books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think bernard and jwilson are stronger, but they are all much, much weaker when they aren't in tournaments together.

jb9 · #**2719** 03-01-2006, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
who knows how many of us would cheat if given the opportunity...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh...

We all know. We all have the opportunity.

Why is this such a slippery topic for so many?

This is not some obscure philosophical concept that can only be understood by mountain dwelling hermits after decades of contemplation... Really, it isn't...

jb9 · #**2720** 03-01-2006, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine you're Lee Jones. You run Pokerstars. If you ban a cheater and a group of his buddies, what's to stop them from simply getting new computers, new names, and coming right back and doing it again, destroying all the time and effort you put into catching the little [censored] in the first place? The answer is nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

A partial answer is requiring real verification of identity (drivers license, passport, etc. -- stuff you need to get a loan from a bank or to get on an international flight).

This wouldn't stop the dedicated cheaters, but it would really slow down the "hey if they didn't want people doing this they wouldn't make it so easy" crowd.

A clear legal status in the U.S. would also help a great deal as it would allow poker sites to file claims against US citizens for fraud, etc.