Best Big Men to Ever Play the Game

[gusmahler]

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Trying to rank player we never saw and going by stats is just silly imo. You simply have to go by the wisdom of the people that did see them play- obviously you won't get as good of an analysis of them as you would a modern day player that you personally saw, but its the only thing you can do.

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People's memories get fuzzy. Their memories of Russell are invariably clouded by the # of rings he has.

[rubbrband]

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I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this, but fine....

Where do you rank Bill Russell among all time big men then?

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Put Wilt on those Celtics teams, they win the same # of championships. Maybe more. Put Russell on the Warriors--does the famous "winner" make them into a championship team?

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So rank him behind Wilt. Russell any lower than #3 is not correct. He was the best player on ELEVEN NBA championship teams.

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He was very lucky to be on championship winning teams 11 of his 13 seasons. He was one of the best if not the best player on these teams. These teams however were incredibly talented in an era with many fewer teams and no salary cap. Basketball as in poker becoming too results oriented is a major mistake.

[teamdonkey]

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My friend,

I think that you are 100% mistaken here. I have gone on record numerous times saying that you and many others overrate players from the 80s- in other words, I think that you are the one being biased.

Want some proof that I'm not biased? In the Steve Nash thread I ranked my top 30 players of my lifetime.

Now lets divide into two groups:

Group A: The "80s generation". We'll define these players as those who were drafted or entered the league in 1985 or before.

Group B: The "90s/00s generation". We'll define these players as those who were drafted or came into the league in 1986 or after.

Of my top 2, 1 of them is from A and 1 is from B

Of my top 4, 2 are from A and 2 are from B

Of my top 6, 3 are from A and 3 are from B

Of my top 8, 4 are from A and 4 are from B

Of my top 10, 5 are from A and 5 are from B

Of my top 12, 6 are from A and 6 are from B

Of my top 14, 7 are from A and 7 are from B



Thats pretty damn unbiased if you ask me. Now let me ask you: Who are your top 3??? Let me take a wild guess...they're all from group A(MJ, Bird, Magic)??? What about your top 5? Let me take another wild guess....other than Shaq, all of them are from group A(MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem)?


You tell me who is being biased here.

I have been wrong on many occassions. I will sometimes be hypocritical in my logic. I will sometimes overlook certain aspects of things. But I really don't think anyone can accuse me of being biased, being a homer, or being stuck in my opinions. Hell, if I never came out and told people that I was a Wizards fan, most of you wouldn't even be able to tell- thats because I usually leave my personal feelings alone when debating.

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pasting from that thread, here's your list:

Tier 1:
1. MJ
2. Duncan
3. Shaq

Tier 2:
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kobe
7. KG
8. Hakeem
9. Robinson

Tier 3:
10. Stockton
11. Barkley
12. Pippen
13. Malone
14. Hill
15. Nash

-you have Duncan 6 spots above Hakeem. Almost every poster in this thread thinks Hakeem was better, and definately not a full tier worse.
-you have KG 4 spots above Barkley and 6 spots above Karl Malone. I would LOVE to hear a rational arguement for either. Both of these guys were better than KG, not a full tier worse.

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Thats pretty damn unbiased if you ask me. Now let me ask you: Who are your top 3??? Let me take a wild guess...they're all from group A(MJ, Bird, Magic)??? What about your top 5? Let me take another wild guess....other than Shaq, all of them are from group A(MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem)?


You tell me who is being biased here.

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didn't you just get mad at me for "putting words into your mouth"? My top 3 and top 5 look very similar to yours with the exception of Duncan - Jordan Shaq Magic Kobe Bird.

[blindside]

i'm not a big fan of defensive rating... i assume we're talking about rosenbaum's...

i'm probably not giving wallace as much credit as he deserves but my main point still stands... we're comparing ben wallace, the best defensive center in this era(minus duncan) to mark eaton who not many ppl really remember... you start comparing ben wallace to guys like dikembe or alonzo you realize how quickly it becomes no contest...

anyway, by my count, even if i were to give you guys wallace > eaton... then by my count that's still a clear 4 vs. a clear 1 and one by a hair(kg vs. malone)...

[teamdonkey]

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As a person who saw Hakeem's entire career, there is absolutely no question to me that Duncan is a better player, much better. Hakeem was maybe better at his peak (93-96), but across their careers it isn't close. The reasons are simple, Duncan's basketball IQ and desire to win across his career crushes HO, who only became a smart player in his 9th season (92-93) Before that Olajuwon was a stat whore like Karl Malone who often hurt his teams chances to win in his pursuit of individual stats (mostly points). Specifically speaking he wouldn't pass the rock out of the post even when triple teamed, as a result teams would single him most of the game (to let him get his points), and then double and triple him late in the 4th and get the win. But since he got his points he didn't care, late in his career he finally wised up due in part to the insistence of coach Don Chaney, who got him to pass by appealing to his stat whorishness in a quest for a quadruple double (which HO did in fact eventually achieve).
LOL at anyone who thinks winning championships doesn't matter in determining the greatness of basketball players. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, not to accumulate pretty numbers. Wilt was the greatest stat whore of all time. it took him 8 seasons to wise up. Jordan was right behind him until Phil Jackson came along and wised his ass up. Russell and Duncan are very similar in that they eschew pretty stats for winning. Russell didn't care who scored, didn't insist on getting 'his minutes' or 'his touches' in blowouts (to pad his stats), Duncan is very similar in this regard. Duncan whines too frucking much, but other than that he's defintely an ATG.

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not to derail your awesome post, but Hakeem's two top scoring years were also the years he won titles.

[joel2006]

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You do realize that Jordan led the league in scoring every year he qualified for it (except his rookie year) during his stint with the Bulls, right?

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Yes, I do. That's why I said he was a stat whore early in his career (first 6 years actually). But he truly wanted to be great and win championships (like Magic and Isaiah) so he made changes to his game (like coming out and passing a lot early) and found ways to get his points in ways that helped the team as opposed to hurt it. He also started giving up the ball late in games which made him much harder to defend in those situations. This was due to PJ embarrassing him in front of his teammates after they lost the 2nd ECF to the Bad Boy Pistons (Jackson kept asking Jordan who was open on the last play, and he wouldn't let anyone leave until Jordan answered, finally Jordan said one word "Pax" meaning John Paxson. The next year Jordan passed the ball much better in critical situations and the Bulls finally beat the Pistons.

[MEbenhoe]

Duncan at #2? wow

[joel2006]

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not to derail your awesome post, but Hakeem's two top scoring years were also the years he won titles.

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Yes, they were. Stat whoring isn't about how much you shoot necessarily, but how one's shooting affects the team. When the Rockets won the title HO had become one of the best passing big men in the game. Which made him a more efficent scorer, becuz you couldn't simply double and triple team him late anymore. Before he would keep trying to score and get his points (but at a lower shooting %), now he was hitting the open man for wide open 3's and punishing defenses. Mad Max (Vernon Maxwell) and Alien Sam (Cassell) were both bigtime scorers with absolutely no fear of taking big shots. Their ability to knock down those shots forced Ds to pick their poison and made HO impossible to guard (once he was willing to give up the rock).

[Mano]

Bill Russell tribute

Russell and Wilt.

Bill Russell

Wilt

Wilt Newsreel + highlights

[joel2006]

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Apparently you are retarded.

When you spout off stupid cliches like "His desire to win was higher so he was better" as your argument it's just dumb.

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Apparently you're more interested in Ad Homenim juvenilia, than an intelligent conversation, but whatever. My point was that Duncan's desire to win was greater than his need to put up big numbers. From his rookie season he was willing to do whatever it took to win games and by extension, championships. Whereas it took HO 9 years to get to the same point, and that IMO makes Duncan a greater player