Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[Cyrus]

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I think [the recent attack] is a terrible move by Israel given the progress that Lebanon has made in the past 18 months. The goal should be lessening the influence extremists have in Lebanon, not driving the government into their arms.

[/ QUOTE ]This is an important point that has not been stressed enough in the related discussions. (We seem to be concerned more with putting labels on the debating opponent.)

The attack risks to radicalize the Arabs of Lebanon, with the implicit danger of forcing even the Israelis' previous (and lone) allies, the Christian nationalists, into the anti-Israel camp. (Note that there were some Christians among the casualties, while many Christians have already abandoned or lost their homes.)

Lebanon was ready to get away from under the Syrian influence and to consolidate a viable national consensus in politics, which would have been presumably to the long-term benefit of Israel as well. A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon. With the main fighting force of the Palestinians having left Lebanon in the 1980s, Hezbollah and its heteroclite allies were the only obstacles in that endeavor.

[BluffTHIS!]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

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Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

[ACPlayer]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

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Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

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Are you aware of the timeline of the Haifa attacks vis-a-vis the Israeli attacks all over Lebanon?

A propotionate response from Israel and there would have been no Haifa attacks.

[Howard Beale]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

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Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

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Are you aware of the timeline of the Haifa attacks vis-a-vis the Israeli attacks all over Lebanon?

A propotionate response from Israel and there would have been no Haifa attacks.

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I'm wondering what you consider a proportionate response would have been?

[ACPlayer]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you aware of the timeline of the Haifa attacks vis-a-vis the Israeli attacks all over Lebanon?

A propotionate response from Israel and there would have been no Haifa attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering what you consider a proportionate response would have been?

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The provocation was the taking of two Israeli's by the Hezbollah. THere was no direct attack on Israel.

Well, generally the Lebanese government is not hostile to Israel, as I understand the dynamic. An initial attempt to work would them would be a start. Israel is now mounting pressure on Assad to get involved in discussions with the Hezbollah. There may have been ways to get that dynamic started without actually attacking the country (which by the way never attacked Israel).

So, we take a criminal act by militant group and go ape-s**t. Killing 100s, displacing thousands, destroying the economy of a country that just got rid of the Syrians, is modestly pro-western. Without trying anything else first.

The justifications on this forum for the Israeli response is nauseating.

[irvman21]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

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Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

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Are you aware of the timeline of the Haifa attacks vis-a-vis the Israeli attacks all over Lebanon?

A propotionate response from Israel and there would have been no Haifa attacks.

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This is just a completely ridiculous statement based on absolutely nothing but your own bias, unless of course you are part of the Hezzbolah command who planned the initial kidnappings and the response to IDF's reaction.

[Sniper]

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fwiw, hezbollah has fired roughly 1,000 rockets into Israel this past week... and Israel has destroyed roughly 3-4,000...

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Hezbollah has fired more like 700 rockets in the last week. Here's one source. Type "700 rockets" into google for a whole load more sources. Of course, 700 is pretty damn bad, and quite enough for me to understand fully why Israeli civillians support their governments actions in this matter.

Do you have a source for the 3-4000 rockets destroyed? I've not heard that number anywhere.

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700/1K... not going to quibble over exact numbers when rockets are fired on a continual basis, but I will note that the page you linked to was dated July 9th.

I'm posting info based on IDF reports, which now estimate that somewhere between 1/3-1/2 of the hezbollah katyushas have been destroyed.

[ACPlayer]

Huh?

Did the Haifa bombings occur before or after Israel dropped the first bombs in Lebanon?

If I am wrong, I would like to know, so I can consider whether to change my views on anything.

[irvman21]

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A strong, central government in Beirut would sooner or later attempt to establish its authority over every part of Lebanon.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, why can't the Israelis, especially in Haifa, just be more patient and endure the missile attacks while the government of Lebanon gets it act together? Even if it ends up being "later", what's some regular Israeli casualties compared to not risking radicalizing more radicals?

Sit in your house and hunker down while your neighbor takes pot shots instead of shooting back, because you might piss off other neighbors and the cops will get around to dealing with them "sooner or later".

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you aware of the timeline of the Haifa attacks vis-a-vis the Israeli attacks all over Lebanon?

A propotionate response from Israel and there would have been no Haifa attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering what you consider a proportionate response would have been?

[/ QUOTE ]

The provocation was the taking of two Israeli's by the Hezbollah. THere was no direct attack on Israel.

Well, generally the Lebanese government is not hostile to Israel, as I understand the dynamic. An initial attempt to work would them would be a start. Israel is now mounting pressure on Assad to get involved in discussions with the Hezbollah. There may have been ways to get that dynamic started without actually attacking the country (which by the way never attacked Israel).

So, we take a criminal act by militant group and go ape-s**t. Killing 100s, displacing thousands, destroying the economy of a country that just got rid of the Syrians, is modestly pro-western. Without trying anything else first.

The justifications on this forum for the Israeli response is nauseating.

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A multinational militia funded and armed by Syria and Iran under the tacit approval of Lebanon crossed an international border into Israel, killed eight soldiers and took two hostages and your belief is that Israel should have responded by asking nicely if they could have them back.
There was no direct attack on Israel? Eight soldiers were killed in the initial attack. Did you forget that or did you just never know? You should be nausated by the fact that Hezbollah dragged Lebanon into this situation.

[Sniper]

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Huh?

Did the Haifa bombings occur before or after Israel dropped the first bombs in Lebanon?

If I am wrong, I would like to know, so I can consider whether to change my views on anything.

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Are you suggesting that what Israel should have done is simply crossed the border and kidnapped a couple of hezbollah fighters, while killing a few others in the process?

Those who resort to terrorist tactics should expect to face the wrath of military retaliation... and that is indeed what has occurred here.