ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[curtains]

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Clark,

I'm afraid I must disagree with some of the things you are saying.

I am disgusted by the "holier-than-thou" attitude that some (not all) people are taking. No one is perfect, and I would imagine that most of these people that are "parading in the streets" have their own skeletons in the closet. (That's not to say that i think they are cheating at poker, but it's reasonable to assume that somewhere in their life they have done "something" wrong.) Their sentiments reek of hypocrisy to me. It is possible to be satisfied with the outcome of this without the need for personal attacks.

Additionally, there have been many claims made that "lots" of players have cheated in the same manner as ZeeJustin and JJProdigy. In that regard, I do feel sorry for them as human beings because they have been singled out seemingly at random. It seems quite unreasonable for so much hatred to be directed towards them for particpating in a practice that alledgedly involves dozens of 2+2ers. These two players have been scapegoated.

It's not unfair that they were caught and punished... the injustice lies in the fact that others are getting away with the exact same thing.

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They have probably been singled out because they are such high profile players. One risk of making yourself into a high profile name, is that you will be much more likely to be caught and accused of cheating. At least people will be more likely to send random inquiries to PartyPoker and so on.

So anyway I don't think it was random. Some random joe is less likely to be caught than ZJ because of his popuarity, blog etc etc. If ZJ had decided to use such tactics but not try so hard to put his name in the spotlight, he very likely would have never been caught.

If you want your name to be well known on the internet, you are going to be scrutinized a lot more, so you had better take extra steps to make sure you are squeaky clean.

[suzzer99]

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I want him to update his blog.

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Who doesn't!?!?

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I bet his website traffic is through the roof. Not exactly the circumstances he'd dreamed of to cause that to happen though.

This thread needs a ZJ blog update to blow it past the myspace thread. Otherwise it's gonna be tight.

Anyone want to lay odds on:

1) ZJ updates his blog with My Statement II

2) ZJ's blog sits idle for a month

3) ZJ updates his blog with his new success at Ultimate Bet

4) ZJ's blog disappears from the web

[parappa]

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Gibraltar has a perfectly functional legal system, probably fairer, quicker and cheaper than the USA's if you really must know.

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Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes, I know that Gibraltar has a good legal system. I assume that the possible extra expense or hassle of suing there (though we're perhaps not really talking about that much difference in expense if you were to pursue the matter only in Gibraltar: a 21 year-old with $100,000 in cash will be welcomed by lawyers in any country regardless of his nationality (or the merits of his case). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I'd like to respond more fully, but a quick answer would be: first, while it's illegal for Party to offer its services in, say, Calif, it's not illegal for the player to partake in them;

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Is this correct?

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Second, the recover of the money is a tort action and not a contract action--you're not asking for the money back under the terms of the agreement but because they stole it (i think this is dispsitive)

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Tactically, I like this idea, and it's been a long, long time since law school, but my fuzzy memory is spitting out phrases like "breach of contract claim masquerading as a tort" and "courts don't like this." That's pretty vague, though; I'm sure your knowledge and understanding is much more current.

I do think that the argument along the lines of:
-The fact that it's not illegal to deposit money at Party Poker, even though it might be illegal to actually play poker there, means that the contract, at the very least, contemplates both legal and quasi-legal (emphasising the grey area that online poker lives in, the WTO decision, etc) activities and is therefore enforcable.
-Then that standard line about the unfair and unenforacable T&Cs.
-And the "let's turn it into a tort" thing
-And, since you're at it, some kind of attempt to get his right to play on the site reinstated, no matter how weak. This will make the mark (oops! client!) happier about the outcome either way.

Actually (and this is the unfortunate thing about legal arguments, how seductive they are) the arguments don't look as silly as I thought ten minutes ago, even though I still think that the jurisdictional/legality issues make the case a loser in the US and there is every possibility that a Gibraltar court would simply uphold the T&Cs. In any event, I'm sure that if ZJ puts his surviving bankroll in a duffel bag and heads out the door, that he will be welcomed with open arms by attorneys determined to seek justice for him. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[soah]

I didn't really mean "random" in the strict sense of the word. My two points basically are:

1) I feel no personal gratification over them being caught, and it disgusts me to the extent that some people do.

2) There are (allegedly) many other 2+2ers that have done the same thing and not been caught, and there are many others that have scammed/stole from online poker rooms (cabin downgrading) or taken part of things that are, at the very least, in very gray areas (creating second accounts for rakeback, etc).

I would not be at all surprised if there are people who fit in both of those categories.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't really mean "random" in the strict sense of the word. My two points basically are:

1) I feel no personal gratification over them being caught, and it disgusts me to the extent that some people do.

2) There are (allegedly) many other 2+2ers that have done the same thing and not been caught, and there are many others that have scammed/stole from online poker rooms (cabin downgrading) or taken part of things that are, at the very least, in very gray areas (creating second accounts for rakeback, etc).

I would not be at all surprised if there are people who fit in both of those categories.

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Yes I agree with you.

My main point is that if you want to be in the public eye, you generally need to be more careful than someone who doesn't.

[Weatherhead03]

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This is absolutely unbelievable. I had no idea that multi-accounting the big MTT's was this wide a practice. Definitely will NOT being playing any more Stats MTTS until there is a bloodbath of ravaged accounts and money starting with Amsterdam.

My view that Stars was the safest place to play poker has been crushed. I did not realise how naive I really was.

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This is pretty much my view on it. Good thing I dont play big MTT so I wont be missing anything.

[BOTW]

[William]

BOOOOOH! Bad taste, not funny, lame!

[BOTW]

Thanks!<font color="white"> Edit: It has been a while, statement II is overdue, this is my invocation. </font>

[illunious]

I found out about this late, and I'm through 1800 replies... my thoughts so far.

There are a lot of "gray areas" in online poker.

Some people still think PT is cheating. Rakeback can push or violate the boundaries of a sites TOS. Pokeredge and pokerprophecy both gained a huge 2+2 userbase before they were banned. PT huds, odds calculators, AHK hacks and graphics mods could all be easily interpreted as a violation of most sites TOS, though tons of 2+2ers use them. Multiple accounts simply for non-name-recognition seems to be considered OK by most. Online poker itself is a gray area for US players.

But whether you consider any of the above to be wrong, or even when you look at bots, multiaccounting and collusion, they are all completely impossible to detect if done by a savvy enough computer geek.

The thing with the people that have been caught is, they were not trying to hide anything, they were playing all of their accounts on the same computer/ip. This either reveals that A: The biggest poker sites SSSSUUUUCK at preventing cheating or B: These sites were undecided on multiaccounting and the anti-collusion measures they use didn't catch anything suspicious. There's also an A: same-computer-multiaccounters were completely retarded for not using non-detectable methods or B: they were under the impression that is was OK as long as they didn't collude.

I don't think "SIXSIXSIXSIXSIX666 HORSES" is that revealing about his intent to collude. AFAIK ZJ was (1 account [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) 12 tabling high stakes SNGs and cash games a lot before this... entering 6 times in a MTT wouldn't be anything special for someone that is doing it purely for the non-colluding EV.

With all that said, I think ZJ made a huge error in judgement when he played two accounts at the same table. This is the one and only thing I think is reprehensible.

There were obviously a bunch of people starting to multi-account simply because they heard others did it. Also, Party quite easily allowed for someone to enter multiple accounts into a MTT on the same computer.

Honestly, I can put myself in their shoes and could see myself considering multi-accounting if I heard through my poker playing friends about how many people are doing it and the ease of doing it. I would have seen it ethically as perfectly fine as long as I closed any table I had two players on (before reading this thread of course).