Female on Paxil, Things have changed

[Hopey]

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i DO cross lines, and she keeps rejecting them. the arm around her, the whole thing where i tried to turn brushing her hair into a massage, etc. i'm making the effort here, she is just being a tease.

(probably a bitch one at that, but i'm still letting things play out)

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Your whole story reminded me of a very similar situation that I went through with a psycho that I went to college with. I fell head over heels for her after getting to know her while working on a project together. We'd go out for drinks, go out for dinner, would spend hours talking on the phone, etc... I thought we were dating, but when I finally started to try to put moves on her (after she'd invited me over to her place on a Friday night to watch a movie and get drunk) she informed me that in her mind we were "just friends".

The next day she called me and acted all freaked out that I could possibly have feelings for her, and was cold to me for awhile after that. I backed off, but then she started sending me emails, hinting that she might have changed her mind and wanted to start hanging out again.

We start hanging out again, but this time she was even more flirty with me. I had hope that she has realized that I'm a good match for her. However, as soon as I would try to get close to her, she'd say something like "you're going too fast" or "let's see where this goes" (whatever *that* means) . A few days later she emails me and tells me that my feelings for her are "just too much right now" and she tells me that she doesn't think we should see each other anymore. I'm devastated but move on.

Well, guess what? About a week later she emails me and starts acting flirty again (as if nothing had happened before). We start hanging out again, and...well, you can guess the rest.

I rinsed and repeated about 5 or 6 times throughout that school year, and hated myself for it a little more every time. Oh, and the best part is that I never got so much as a kiss out of her.

So you've gotten farther with your cock-tease than I did, but I still am begging you to cut bait and run. I thought that you needed to screw this girl to get her out of your system, but it is obvious now that you're never going to screw her. Your story made that all too obvious.

There's a certain number of insecure girls out there that need guys like you (and me) to pine over them in order for them to feel desirable. She's giving you just enough to give you hope, but as soon as you try to act on that hope she pulls the rug out from under you and you fall back and have to start all over again.

Stop being her plaything. She'll never love you like you love her.

[Blarg]

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Doc,

She likes the attention. She's not taking YOUR feelings into consideration. She's having fun. Have you ever seen a cat bat a mouse around before killing it?

This is going to happen to you over and over again until you're so sick of it you won't be able to help but do something about it. It's the only way you'll get out of this hole you're in. Print this thread out. Someday, hopefully, when your head has emerged from wherever it is right now, you're going to read this and want to shoot yourself in the head.

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I don't think Doc realizes that the only way a lot of us can relate to this thread or give advice about it is because we've been there and been through enough of this crap ourselves that we wouldn't wish it on anyone else. We can comment on the mistakes because we've done them all! Well, not all of us perhaps, but few people haven't traumatized themselves by barking up the wrong emotional and/or pussy tree to an absurdity beyond all reason.

It's not that we're mean. We just hate seeing a repeat of such a miserable story. Most of us can remember our own blunders all too clearly.

I agree that this can become a lifestyle, too, and be hard to snap out of. You have to be sick of it, or you'll wind up perpetuating it, girl after girl.

[Doc7]

Hopey:

That situation is as close to this as any I ever heard. If by "got farther" you mean the make-out thing that doesn't really count, she's made a comment about how that was pretty much meaningless.

We've only done the "stop talking to me for a while" thing 2 or 3 times over 2 years, and actually they were all at my (yelling or typing in all caps when applicable) request. which is what Blarg seems to want me to redo. I almost feel as if I'd be better off mentally by dealing with THIS until the summertime when hopefully both of us are busy at jobs and things fall apart naturally. of course that didnt happen any of the other summers we've known each other. maybe when we graduate in may '07. [censored] me running.

[Hopey]

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She's hoping that by doing this, you'll break out of your shell and become the "real man" she's attracted to.

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I disagree entirely with this. You are giving her too much credit, and you are giving false hope to Doc. Doc makes her feel desirable, so she keeps him around. He's also harmless in that he isn't aggressive with her, so she can keep him at arm's length when they're together.

There is nothing he can do to make her respect him. She'll let him get just close enough and fill him with enough hope that he sticks around, but won't go any farther. Any "progress" that he feels he has made will always be illusory. It's impossible to make progress with a girl like this. Either you're in, or you're out.

[Blarg]

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Tappy:

What do you interpret as my current mindset?

And what do you think my mindset SHOULD be?

Keep in mind that this girl is literally my best friend, and I hers. I am the boyfriend that gets no play. 90% of people I interact with believe she is my girlfriend, including my parents who have spent several weekends with her, and many of our mutual friends. I find it hard to take a "life aint nothin but bitches an' money" approach to this girl with this kind of relationship already in place.

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You have just described a relationship where everybody is being fooled. (Including you, not incidentally.)

How healthy is that? Exactly why should that be preserved in its present state?

[bigt2k4]

Post deleted by diebitter

[Blarg]

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Hopey:

That situation is as close to this as any I ever heard. If by "got farther" you mean the make-out thing that doesn't really count, she's made a comment about how that was pretty much meaningless.

We've only done the "stop talking to me for a while" thing 2 or 3 times over 2 years, and actually they were all at my (yelling or typing in all caps when applicable) request. which is what Blarg seems to want me to redo. I almost feel as if I'd be better off mentally by dealing with THIS until the summertime when hopefully both of us are busy at jobs and things fall apart naturally. of course that didnt happen any of the other summers we've known each other. maybe when we graduate in may '07. [censored] me running.

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What I want is for you to get a life outside of her -- a life in other words.

You want to wait till summer to get one, or till things somehow magically take care of themselves? What if they don't? Why should you wait?

It's this wishy-washy passiveness that makes you exhibit less of the confidence and decisiveness that women find attractive in men.

The richer the life you have outside her, the richer your life will be with her or with anyone else. As long as she's got you tied around her little finger with nowhere else to go as an emotional or sexual outlet, she'll have no reason to give you anything more than you're already getting. She'll have no competition from other interests, other women, or a higher level of self-respect from you. She'll see the diminished picture of you that you've shown her is an acceptable way to regard you. And until you or some other women see you as anything else but so diminished, why should she?

You're giving her nothing to work with here.

Don't you want more out of life? Because you're not going to get any more doing the same old thing, running the same dead end over and over. Isn't this kind of like that definition of zealotry -- forgetting your goal but doubling your efforts? You seem almost zealous about going nowhere.

[Hopey]

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Hopey:

That situation is as close to this as any I ever heard. If by "got farther" you mean the make-out thing that doesn't really count, she's made a comment about how that was pretty much meaningless.

We've only done the "stop talking to me for a while" thing 2 or 3 times over 2 years, and actually they were all at my (yelling or typing in all caps when applicable) request. which is what Blarg seems to want me to redo. I almost feel as if I'd be better off mentally by dealing with THIS until the summertime when hopefully both of us are busy at jobs and things fall apart naturally. of course that didnt happen any of the other summers we've known each other. maybe when we graduate in may '07. [censored] me running.

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Truth be told, I wasn't totally free of the girl in my story until we graduated. Even then she'd still email me regularly, and would ask me to go out for drinks, etc... However, I told myself once school was done that I'd stop pining over her, so I cut ties with her for awhile and she was eventually completely out of my system.

The funny thing is that I still get the ocassional email from her, but now I feel a certain amount of contempt for her when I do. I realize what a shallow person she is, and how she looked down on me for that entire school year. I deserved better than that, but I allowed myself to fall into her trap over and over again.

You need to find another girl. That's the quick fix. However, once you start seeing someone else, be prepared for your friend to suddenly start finding you attractive again. That is, until you dump the girl you're seeing to be with your friend, at which point your friend will lose interest again.

[Magellan]

Doc, can't you see that you need to be more "pushy" in these situations? I say that with caution because I absolutely do not mean bordering-on-rape-pushy so much as I'm-playing-the-game-pushy. Surely you're not waiting for her to say "I now give you permission to penetrate me", 'cause that's not how it works. When she comes out with a "not part of the deal" type of comment, that's the time to put the moves on. Tell her "yeah well the deal has changed, the old one wasn't working for me", and go for it. Tell her "I've grown those balls you mentioned, you're about to feel them". She's made it obvious that despite all the crap she talks about needing time etc. that all she wants is for you to put the moves on in "manly" fashion.

Seriously, how hard would it be to just go for it? Don't listen to what she is saying, answer her protests with some b-grade lines that would be at home in a porn flick, and physically push the point. If she responds in a way that seems like she genuinely isn't up for it then cool it, but everything you have mentioned so far is just game playing. I mean like seriously throw her on the bed/ground/whatever and start removing her clothes while telling her that enough is enough, you're finally gonna give her what she wants. You know her well enough to know the difference between her seriously putting the brakes on as opposed to just playing with you some more. If she is up for it, this physical/no-more-games approach will probably turn her on. You can't hedge your bets, you're gonna need a full-on approach to make it happen with this chick. In summary: SHE DOESN'T NEED MORE TIME, SHE JUST NEEDS YOU TO PUT THE MOVES ON IN AN ASSERIVE WAY.

As for this kinda thing:
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OK , then , here is what i want to know.

I am not rich. I am not incredibly handsome. I do aid her in homework, however that mostly consists of me yelling at her to turn off the TV and do the work or I'm leaving as opposed to doing her work for her / helping her get good grades on exams.

what reason does she have to almost continously make intentional appeals to my sex drive (including setting down ground rules about certain activities that may and may not occur if we end up screwing)? I can not believe that there is a part of a woman that could be this malicious for the sake of being this malicious.

if i had money, I could see it.

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Thinking about this is a waste of time for many reasons, but mainly because it only affects the outcome if YOU let it.

Doc, please do what it takes to bang this girl. I'm gonna have to bill you for medication I've started taking because of this thread if you don't wrap this up soon.

[Tappy Tibbons]

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Tappy:

What do you interpret as my current mindset?

And what do you think my mindset SHOULD be?

Keep in mind that this girl is literally my best friend, and I hers. I am the boyfriend that gets no play. 90% of people I interact with believe she is my girlfriend, including my parents who have spent several weekends with her, and many of our mutual friends. I find it hard to take a "life aint nothin but bitches an' money" approach to this girl with this kind of relationship already in place.

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If you're comfortable with only being her best friend, and never a lover, then keep doing what you're doing. Just keep in mind that you'll spend the rest of your friendship hearing about her boyfriends, how they are in bed, "I wish they were more like you," etc. One day, you may have a part in her wedding, where you get to watch as she marries someone else. Is that what you really want?

IF you want any chance whatsoever with this girl (and honestly it's less than 5% at this point), you need to stop paying so much attention to her. You need to stop looking at her like a prize to be won over, stop trying to be her therapist (it's coming, trust me), and stop looking at her as "the one." Women like a challenge, and she knows that she could have you as a lover in a second.

Start with those links I posted above, they'll lead you in the right direction. I'm not talking about being some pimp who treat women like crap either (although that will get better results than what you've tried so far). I'm talking about learning to be more assertive and confident around women, so that you become the prize to be won over.

So first of all, stop paying so much attention to her. In fact, ignore her entirely for the time being. Once you start to learn how to attract women (again, start with those links), start dating other women and let her know. Once she sees that your a confident man who attracts other women, she will start to find you more attractive (you'll have higher status in her eyes). At that point, however, you'll have met many other women, and I'm guessing she won't seem as great a catch to you at that point.

I've been in your shoes, spent 2 years as the best friend, and never slept with the girl. It tore me apart, but it also forced me to learn how to attract women, and how to be a better man.