ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume that if I went to a casino and cheated at blackjack, I would only lose the money that I was up and not the cash I brought to the casino? This is what all you pokerstars defenders are saying?

"No, you can't take that money too, I won that playing Roulette!"

"Ok, you can keep it"

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was thinking. What if someone who was at your $100 home game had been there 6 times. He wins three times. The 7th time he comes you catch him cheating - dealing himself winners. He has an extra $1000 in his pocket - do you let him keep it?

Stars believes Zee ONLY colluded for $5000 worth on thier site. Did he only win ONE or TWO $500 SNG's while he was colluding? Did he make ONE MTT cash for $5000 when he had TWO accounts entered? That does not mean that they might have missed an account or missed someone who was working with him as a "team." They missed all this multi-accounting activity before they were informed and follow it up by giving a pass. Way to go stars.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
A point I've made elsewhere (in the thread about Peachy's account being hacked).

This is from an IRC chat to save me the effort in retyping.

[06:38] <B_Dids> the thing that party/stars lack
[06:38] <B_Dids> is software that does simple idiot tests
[06:38] <B_Dids> "this person just logged in from Cali, how can they log in from NY 20 minutes later"
[06:38] <B_Dids> "6 accounts just logged in from the same subnet at the same time"
[06:39] <B_Dids> and at a min- that should automate a "check this out" email to party/stars
[06:39] <B_Dids> and in the former case, should just shut things down alltogether in order to investigate things.

[/ QUOTE ]

IP location is not 100%.

For example, if my cable internet goes down, I might decide to dial up to an AOL account I keep for backup and travelling. My location just changed from NY to Vienna, VA. Perhaps in cases like this the software could limit you from buying in to anything new, but allow you to keep playing your current tournaments, etc.

[Sponger.]

[ QUOTE ]
Please refrain from all further discussion on anything related to people being or not being Jewish, Jews, Judaica, or Judaism in general. It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah crap, I was gonna post about shabbat and yom kippur but I guess I'll have to take it somewhere else.

Thanks for the censorship Lloyd!

[aeest400]

I'm starting to think that people who criticize Stars for not clamping down enough on alleged cheaters are just idiots. Unilaterally confiscating $100,000 after conducting an "internal" investigation and deciding that certain prohibited but previously ignored activities violate your illegal and unenforceable terms and conditions (you clicked on these when you signed up at Party) is a brilliant way to take a company down.

In fact, it's the best way Party can become hopelessly embroiled in the US legal system. Unfortunately, Party's IPO prospectus notes that its directors may be subject to criminal prosecution if found within the US. [For people who think Party could sue JJProdigy or ZeeJustin, LOLOL]

Seriously, from an informed legal perspective Party's actions are not only dumb, they are suicidal and threaten to kill some of your golden geese much more effectively than Grandma ever could. It won't hurt US investors very much, however, because it's a federal offense for US investors to buy Party's stock.

Party's taking such a hard-line stand without an ounce of subtlety, reflection, or an iota of legal authority is the best thing that it can do if it wants to cease to exist as a company.

Some people need to go beyond the first level of moral reasoning (El Diablo, do you understand now, can you help?) and open up their eyes to the consequences of making examples out of people.

Stars, however, is aware of the complexities involed with confiscation of peoples' funds and have crafted a policy designed to deal with these complexitiees. That is smart.

By the way, if Party has found you "cheating" and confiscated funds from you, PM me. You will be glad you did.

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume that if I went to a casino and cheated at blackjack, I would only lose the money that I was up and not the cash I brought to the casino? This is what all you pokerstars defenders are saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

This discussion is mis-directed. It's only relevant for those who believe in punishment as a deterrent or "preventive meassure" against fraud. There's a ton of studies and very little evidence that there's any substantial correlation between the size of the pecuniary punishment and the effectiveness of the deterrent factor of the punishment.

This discussion should pivot around the meassures that could be taken to detect cheating - from the very beginning when cheaters manage to register and command more independent accounts on one site - to the situation where these accounts actually are entered into the same tournament or cash game.

This comes down to one factor: Money.

The possibilities of developing effect means of curbing the cheating is directly correlated to the amount of dollars (ie. qualified man-hours) any site is willing to invest in research and development in this field.

Is your site willing to pay what it cost to keep the games clean?

Would you be willing to pay a higher rake/vig to feel safe from cheaters?

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[faustusmedea]

I'm sure this angle has been posted, but with 90+ pages, I didn't see it.

Its important to recognize a small semantic argument. These guys didn't cheat the poker sites; they cheated the poker playing community. This is important because I believe it has ramifications about penalties and how those penalties are applied. Poker rooms spread games, provide a shuffle and deal hands. For that, they take a fee (rake).

It is the players who are competing against each other; thus when a player breaks commonly accepted rules to gain an unfair advantage, he/she is cheating against the other players. In this case, the cheating actually was an initial positive to the sites due to increased rake (though probably a net wash due to the negative publicity).

I feel that any funds confiscated need to be given back to the player community and moreover, it should be public information how the money was distributed. Its the only way for the site to remain credible in continuing to spread an honest game. There is absolutely no circumstance where the house can take monies confiscated from cheating and keep it. Players need to unite behind this area because at the end of the day, we OWN the games, the site is simply managing them. Certainly, redistributing specific wins to other participants in a specific MTT is one of the correct methods, but when ancillary funds are confiscated because the player was found out to be a cheat, those monies should go back to the player community at large in one form or another. In other words, the house should never benefit from uncovering abuses to the games as this is an implicit responsibility in spreading the games.

Fm

[Baulucky]

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It has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what you think. I think it's the central point of the thread, but we'll never get to know that. Good bye.

[jb9]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that any funds confiscated need to be given back to the player community and moreover, it should be public information how the money was distributed. Its the only way for the site to remain credible in continuing to spread an honest game. There is absolutely no circumstance where the house can take monies confiscated from cheating and keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. How would you feel about sites using seized money to increase funding for their security measures?

I would be open minded about it, but it is always worrisome when those in charge of investigating wrong doing benefit whenever they find wrong doing.

[odellthurman]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, from an informed legal perspective Party's actions are not only dumb, they are suicidal and threaten to kill some of your golden geese much more effectively than Grandma ever could.

By the way, if Party has found you "cheating" and confiscated funds from you, PM me. You will be glad you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by "an informed legal perspective"?

Why the request for PM's?

[teddyFBI]

awesome nick - post those in the OOT ZJ photo thread