ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[betadecay]

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There's no disincentive to cheat on Stars if this is the way they're handeling it.

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Wrong. There is plenty of disincentive. You have two horses in a big tourney. What for? You want to make a big hit. But you will be caught - lose your win and will be banned from the site. Before you make this big hit you probably tried it 10 times, so you lost your 20 buy-ins in the process too.

Another example - police catches a small cheat who stole some item from the department store. Would they confiscate his his house and his bank account? Maybe in Saud Arabia.

Also Party never said that they confiscated more than they discovered was stolen by cheating.

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This is wrong, Police catches a theif and the stolen goods are confiscated, the theif goes to jail, pays fines, and has a crap load of bridges burned for the next few years of his life. There is very little incentive to not cheat at stars.

[psuasskicker]

You have two horses in a big tourney. What for? You want to make a big hit. But you will be caught - lose your win and will be banned from the site. Before you make this big hit you probably tried it 10 times, so you lost your 20 buy-ins in the process too.

This is garbage because there very well can and will be players who will NOT bust out and lose 20 buy-ins in this situation. And if they're sitting there with a huge chunk of cash in their account, are found to have cheated, but maybe weren't caught in that particular tourney, they get away with it.

Besides all that, you're assuming they're 100% going to be caught whenever they're cheating. Meanwhile, it's obvious guys have been cheating for some time without having been caught. Further troubling in the matter is that Stars only caught them because of a report to Party which generated the discovery!

Another example - police catches a small cheat who stole some item from the department store. Would they confiscate his his house and his bank account? Maybe in Saud Arabia.

No, but no one that I know is headed out to confiscate all of ZJ's property. And I also don't know too many people who steal store merchandise and wind up getting the security guard taking it back from them and shooing them out of the store. That's not punishment, and without punishment, there's no disincentive to take cheating actions.

Stars' apparent treatment of this situation is horrible, and makes me want to play there less than I already do (which is virtually zero as it is).

- C -

[soah]

I don't understand the significance of misspelling a word in bold italics? I'm not trying to be a spelling nit but if you think you are "fixing" my post then you should be aware that I spelled the word correctly.

Other than that you seem to be trying to argue semantics with me.

But I do find it amusing that you tell me my post is incorrect, but then go on to say "he's losing his time and buy in" .... when my post was a direct retort to the statement "it is impossible for them to lose by cheating."

[William]

I suggested this in another thread at the Zoo, but the more I think about it the more I like it (flame away). There's a bigger chance than somebody from the sites reads it here, so here it goes:


I think sites should use confiscated money to buy space in all major poker magazines; Card Player, Poker Europe, etc... and every 2 weeks, once a month or whatever is dictated by how many online cheaters there are come public with a list of cheaters. Handles, real names, amounts confiscated, which countries they come from and how they where cheating and caught.

That would really be something that would help the poker community, both online and live.

[PartyGirlUK]

Lee,

I (Deanrover6), have withdrawn my money from pokerstars as I don't wish to play at a site that takes such a pussilanimous attitude towards fraudsters. I had just deposited after a long hiatus and was planning on making it my home for 4+ tabling the 30-60. I refuse to entrust my livelihood to a site that refuses to provide a disincentive to cheat.

Dean

[Steam Donkey]

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he's not talking about ZJ. this has been discussed at length, it's about stars cash games.

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In SNGs it would be horrible cheating, in cash games I really can't see what harm it does.

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You must be joking.

[ggbman]

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my $.02 for ZeeJustin and the board

ZeeJustin,

The sun comes up. You made a mistake and I hope you come out OK through it all. I've been in your shoes in some ways and it sucks. But, I hope you can make the best of the situation. I'm not saying it will be a positive event. I doubt it will be. Just make the best of what has happened, because that is all you can do.

I made a terrible mistake when I was 19, which I've mentioned a few times in the forum before. I was heavy into the drug scene. Most people I knew were 'doing it.' No one was getting in trouble for it. I, and my acquaintences, didn't think much trouble would result if we did get caught. No one was being hurt by what we were doing. Well....

I got caught. I was breaking the law. I thought then, and still think, that the laws are/were stupid. However, that gives me no right to not obide by those laws.

It turned out to be a big deal. Through months of legal battles/negotiations, I was fortunate enough to receive only a 3 years sentence in the department of corrections for a possession charge. (The time served was much less as I was a first-time, non-violent offender who received good-time credit though I did violate prison rules... yeah, nothing about prison is logical.)

At the time, I was studying to become a high school teacher. Good luck with that. Decisions at 19 can bar one permanently from a chosen field. I moved into a different field when I tried to put my life back on track. I earned numerous degrees from a major university in a prestigious program (one which is consistently rated as tops in the country), but I still could not find employment. Once a felon, always a felon. Luckily, poker exists and I was still able to find my niche and make a few dollars.

Today, I live a different, but still very good life. Many avenues were blocked, but, luckily, this is a land of opportunity.

ZeeJustin, I hope you can see some parallels. You're 19 and it's both every bit as important and not nearly as important as you think. You broke the rules, whether you think they are 'right' or not. This will take months to sort out and will always be crawling somewhere around in your mind. Try to make the best of it. Don't let it bring you down. Remember, most people that achieve great things go through a few monumental failures. A lapse of judgment at 19, though wrong, is not that bad if you learn from it.

I've always respected your posts here on 2p2 and you have a great mind for this game. I'm not a fan of your cheating.

I wish you luck in wherever you go and whatever you do.

Peace

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This is one of the best posts in this mess of a thread.

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I agree,
Carl

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Fantastic post, thank you for sharing. Nice that something good came of all this.

[suzzer99]

Dammit this thread needs another ZeeJustin rebuttal if it's gonna have enough steam to pass the myspace thread. How bout it Zee? Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get in here. At least the ZeeJustin brand name will live on as the subject of the longest thread in the history of 2+2. Who wouldn't want that kind of fame?

[Exsubmariner]

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1. He had a single extra PokerStars account which he rarely used.

2. His big tournament win on PokerStars was legitimate (we checked it carefully). The amount of money that we ascribed to illicit play was relatively small (less than $5K), and we confiscated that entire amount. We permitted him to cash out the balance over that.


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I think that largely sidesteps the point. It simply doesn't matter if his BIG WIN was legitimate, because ALL of his wins are equally tainted by his behavior, regardless of whether it influenced the one BIGGEST win or not. We all appreciate you entering this thread, Lee, but implying that his one big score should stand unaffected because he only had one entry in THAT tournament is a poor interpretation of the long-term effects of cheating/probability/running good/bad.
Imagine I'm a ring game player whose cheating M.O. is to have two of my aliases sit at one table so I know all 4 of their downcards, and play accordingly. Assume further that sometimes, I sit one of my 2 screenames out, so that I am only playing one account just like everyone else. Let's say that I happen to run VERY well when I'm only playing one hand and sitting out my other screename (let's say I win $20,000), but I run only mediocre when I AM playing 2 sets of down-cards at the table and I win only $4,000. Using the same logic you employed in concluding that ZJ's big score was "legitimate" would lead you to conclude in my above example that ONLY $4,000 was ill-gotten. I've got to disagree with you. The amount that was ill-gotten was $24,000. A cheater shouldn't be able to get a "windfall" simply because one of the times he was actually playing legitimately he ran particularly well. The cheating pervades ALL of his play, just like in my example above, the cheating taints EVERY hand at the table, not just the ones where the cheater got to see 2 sets of down-cards.
If you subscribe to the belief that our poker EV is ALL ONE BIG GAME, and that any distinctions we make between days or sessions is just a fictitious one, then you've got to conclude that ZJ's big win on Stars was ILLEGITIMATE, even while he may have only had one horse in THAT tourney.

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Hey Teddy,
I've got it. I think the next Stars policy change is that we should all be able to buy in to the tourneys as many times as we want using our single account. This way, we can have as many chances as the cheaters and if one of our spots wins, then it's all legitimate. There. I've come up with a way they can neutralize the edge gained by a multi accounter and provide no incentive to be one.....

(disclaimer: the above is satire. Prompted largely by Lee Jones' lack of sack.)

[Fishy McDonk]

Please pause this thread. I have been reading full time for 2 days and I'm still 2 days behind.