Hand from Borgata WPT

[Bond18]

Hmm, after reading the whole thread i'm not so sure i like the original post now. Seeing as 'the key' basically came down to figuring out his hand range and what he does with the hands in that range, which is, ya know, that thing we do all the time and should hardly be called a key to the problem.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, after reading the whole thread i'm not so sure i like the original post now. Seeing as 'the key' basically came down to figuring out his hand range and what he does with the hands in that range, which is, ya know, that thing we do all the time and should hardly be called a key to the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think the correct line of logic is a bit counter intuitive.

Obviously a lot of people are unhappy with this thread.

But looking at the long list of great posters that said call, I still think there is a lot more depth to the hand than most people are giving it credit for.

[Pudge714]

I think a problem with this thread is ZJ was really cryptic so everyone was expecting this big secret.
Generally peoples ranges are divided into more or less value bets, bluff catchers/draws, bluffs, semi bluff.
Given preflop and this board which is pretty drawless his range is basically value bets, bluff catchers, bluffs.
Usually a raise eliminates a bluff catcher from the range, but since we are unsure of his intention it could mean that bluff catchers are a huge chunk of his range and he meant to call or bluffs are a nonexistent part of his range as he meant to call.
However, since his preflop/flop range doesn't give him many bluff catchers turn is a fold.
This is much easier to articulate after like 200 posts.

[Bond18]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm, after reading the whole thread i'm not so sure i like the original post now. Seeing as 'the key' basically came down to figuring out his hand range and what he does with the hands in that range, which is, ya know, that thing we do all the time and should hardly be called a key to the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think the correct line of logic is a bit counter intuitive.

Obviously a lot of people are unhappy with this thread.

But looking at the long list of great posters that said call, I still think there is a lot more depth to the hand than most people are giving it credit for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean its definitely an interesting way to post a hand and get a discussion going, and i like that you included a ton of detail, but it did go a little Da Vinci code there.

[ZeeJustin]

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I mean its definitely an interesting way to post a hand and get a discussion going, and i like that you included a ton of detail, but it did go a little Da Vinci code there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh well. I tried. Win some, lose some, right? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[mikeJ]

It's still a good hand, Z. Keep posting in HSMTT.

[LuckyLloyd]

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Z. Keep posting in HSMTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please.

[overthaline]

maybe the fact that you were able to see how he played the river solidified the deduction that the turn is an easy fold? obviously when you heard their reasoning you discovered the "key" but you also already knew he had aa/kk.

[palman]

zj- where I think you went wrong is you state "the guy is a homegame player and plays low stakes" then state "he is a good player"

On my first read I read him as a donkey, and my roommate read him as a good player.

Thus for us thinking of him as a donkey, you can't say "he's bluffing the flop 95% of the time with hands with the suited connectors and KQ type hands because it's a perfect flop to represent a monster" Most home game donkeys wouldn't dare bluff into an AK8 flop given 3 way action.

I agree with all your points, except this minor thing which threw me off. I fully expect a home game low limit player to sometimes call in a deepstacked tourney with QQ or JJ.

[Bond18]

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It's still a good hand, Z. Keep posting in HSMTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that about sums it up.