ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[William]

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Wait, so it's no longer okay to log onto your friend's account and finish his tournament? Did that change since this story broke? What am I supposed to do when I lose internet connection in the middle of an MTT? When did this become an issue?

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Of course not, IF you were both playing in the same tournament. You could be someones grandma for all we know.

The sites need to make that clear though.

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From Stars tournament rules:

With trivial exceptions, a player may play on only one account during a tournament. Violation of this rule may result in penalties ranging from a warning, to disqualification from the tournament (with partial or full forfeiture of winnings), to barring from PokerStars.

Examples:
You get a phone call during a PokerStars tournament. You ask your husband, who has already busted out of that tournament, to play your hands for you. You are on the phone for ten minutes and then resume play. This is permitted .

You and a friend, who is a tournament pro, are playing in the same tournament. You agree that if he busts out before you do, he will take over playing your account. This is prohibited .

Your husband is out of town for the weekend, but gives you his password. You log into both his account and yours and play both accounts in the same tournament. This is prohibited .


Is that clear enough?

[roueful]

It looks like nobody really knows the extent of his cheating, and if it was just a matter of entering in the same tourney multiple times, with no collusive or manipulative play, I think he got a rough deal.

That said, I'm glad Stars and Party are making these very public and penalizing nabs, as it's very effective deterrence.

[curtains]

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One last thought I had for BluffThis and all the curtains et al bashers. I find it *more* telling that ZJ did go to curtains as something of an ethical guide. Curtains has never shown anything in the hundreds of posts I've read by him to be anything other than an extremely honest poker player and upstanding citizen. I would probably go to him as well if I had some ethical quandry about poker.

Now if I thought curtains was going to rat me out, even for just bringing up the idea (not that I have one - no inferences plz), forget it. Lori's point, and some others, is that when someone comes to you in confidence with a potential misdeed, it's a little different than stumbling across one from a complete stranger. It's *sort of* like the patient-client privelege that when exists you're the psychiatrist and the patient confides something in you. The reason psychiatrists can't rat out anything other than the worst offenses, is that if they did, there would be no psychiatrists. These people wouldn't even try to get help, and they and society would be the worse off for it.

I'm not saying this is completely analagous to a patient/psychiatrist situation. I'm just saying there are some elements of it. This is the whole "tough dilemma" part of the equation the confidees are going through--that most people seem to grasp inuitively--but a few of you seen to be struggling with mightily. "How serious is this offense?" vs. "How much trust has this person put in me?" "Can I talk them out of it somehow?" "What is my obligation?" "Will anyone ever come to me in confidence again for fear of being ratted out?" Etc. These are all extremely valid questions you have to ask yourself when/if something like this comes up. Obviously if it's something like child molestation, the answer is simple. Potential poker cheating? Serious, but worth breaching the trust of possibly an entire community of poker players + all the other questions above? That's a personal decision. Anyone trying to make it otherwise has never real faced much real life IMO.

So that's from the confidee's (if that's a word) POV. For the poker community as a whole, think of it like this: if young, impressionable poker players can't come to the elder statesman with these kinds of quandries--w/o fear of getting instantly ratted out--then they'll probably just keep it all bottled up inside where the rationalizations can really flourish. Can you see how this would be bad for poker as a whole? At lease ZJ tried to seek out some guidance, I give him credit for that. But he chose not to listen to it, and for that he deserves everything he's getting.


As an aside, I know I'm being melodramatic on this. But I really am a little nervous this will turn him over to the dark side for good, and that reaching out to curtains was one of the last attempts at taking the high road. ZJ is a smart dude, just think if he decided to become completely evil? From his POV we all probably just went from being his biggest fanboys to turning on him on a dime. Lots of motivation and fuel to rationalize just about anythingthere. Muha muah MUHAHAHHAHAHA!!!

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I believe he did listen to it. At least Im quite sure he didn't do anything like this since we spoke. In any case I know that there are many poker players who know ZJ a lot better than me. I also don't feel he was talking to me asking about whether it was ethical or not, he just kind of brought it up matter of factly, to which I expressed my feelings on the topic and directed him to the fact that I made a public statement against the practice in the past, that said I would turn anyone in who plans to multiaccount events in the future.

He was willing to tell me about this without any prodding, simply out of the blue. I can only imagine he has told many many others about this as well, and they never really told him how unethical it was, else I can't imagine why he would have pinpointed me in his statement.

If I recall correctly, the topic was brought up when I was asking what he thought was the highest attainable EV figures in the weekend tournaments. I basically commented tat no one will ever know since it would take years and years of playing them constantly before you have even a semblence of an accurate sample size, and by that time your skill level may have changed drasticaly and etc etc....at that point he mentioned that if people are using multiple accounts you can get reasonable figures much faster and etc etc.


btw I don't think this form of cheating was quite as bad as some people are making it out to be. By this I mean the circumstances involved, everyone was doing it, sites weren't speaking out against it, etc etc. Now that has changed, and not only do I agree that it's unethical, but its with the poker site's full support, which is what's really important. You can think someone is cheating/unethical all you want, but if the poker site you are playing on doesn't feel that way, then you are probably wrong, because all that really matters is the rules the poker site regulates against.

Anyway now it's very clear that Party and Stars agree that this is flat out cheating, and anyone who does so is undeniably a cheater. Sorry if I sound like I'm defending the action. I really do feel it was and is cheating, it's just that I feel that there are much more serious types of cheating that go on all the time, that actually have a serious affect on someones EV. This form of cheating in a very large field of players has a very minor effect at most.

[jman220]

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I wonder how Zee's previous excuses in his apology about Party apply here:

1. Pokerstars does not have a software bug where you can just keep clicking on the icon to open up multiple accounts. He had to go through some considerable trouble to multi-account there (Virtual machine or registry hack or something?)

2. Will he again claim he did something that is not against Stars TOS just like its not against Party's? (Even though it clearly is against both).

3. Will he blame this on Stars like he blamed the other banning on Party?

4. Will he claim that he had extra accounts at Stars just to change his name?


I think that this further proves the points that El Diablo has made throughout this thread. It is now obvious that this kid did a lot more than he admitted to in his "apology." I think its very likely that he not only put six horses in his races, but that his six horses helped each other win the race when they were at the same table.

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Also, should we run for the hills before stars confiscates all of our money for everyone who gets rakeback there as well?

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It is not possible to get rakeback at stars, as they do not have a revenue-sharing affiliate program.

[parappa]

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I wonder how Zee's previous excuses in his apology about Party apply here:

1. Pokerstars does not have a software bug where you can just keep clicking on the icon to open up multiple accounts. He had to go through some considerable trouble to multi-account there (Virtual machine or registry hack or something?)

2. Will he again claim he did something that is not against Stars TOS just like its not against Party's? (Even though it clearly is against both).

3. Will he blame this on Stars like he blamed the other banning on Party?

4. Will he claim that he had extra accounts at Stars just to change his name?


I think that this further proves the points that El Diablo has made throughout this thread. It is now obvious that this kid did a lot more than he admitted to in his "apology." I think its very likely that he not only put six horses in his races, but that his six horses helped each other win the race when they were at the same table.

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Also, should we run for the hills before stars confiscates all of our money for everyone who gets rakeback there as well?

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It is not possible to get rakeback at stars, as they do not have a revenue-sharing affiliate program.

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Yes, that was the joke.

[sirio11]

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I reeeealllly doubt Noah is sitting in his apartment in Amsterdam playing all 3 accounts.

This is why paranoic withchunts are dangerous.

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Oh yes, poor Noah, people ruining his reputation.

The guy is an self-admitted cheater, he was very, very lucky Stars didn't have the balls to do something when he won the Sunday tournament.

Give me a break

[ligastar]

I sent the same email Woodguy sent just to keep the heat on Stars...here is the reply:

Hello Zal,

Thank you for your email.

These players are entirely different people. Both have been signifanctly
documented, and have spoken to us over phone calls and in person on our
most recent PCA event.

El Capitano and Exclusive are an old issue, come to think of it. Once,
Exclusive *did* use both of the accounts to play in one of our events, and
was reprimanded. This is what actually what caused our policy of one
account, one tournament, one player to be established.

Please rest assured that because of these recent discoveries of ZeeJustin
and JJProdigy, there are other cases that are coming in on a daily basis.
Every case is going to be conducted in a thorough investigation and all
affected players will be compensated if harmed.


Regards,

Adam
PokerStars Support Team

We need the non-cheating players to keep the heat on Stars and Party to level the field. If you suspect cheating send the support team an email. Very simple...if they are innocent they will tell you. If they are guilty they will tell you and the funds in those accounts will be seized. Very simple...if you don't cheat you have nothing to worry about. If you do cheat at ANY TIME your account may be frozen and funds seized. Let's turn ZJ's poor actions into a revolutionary force that makes the games safer. I'm convinced online poker is safer today then it was before Meow's email. We will know more good is being done as more players fall and more account are frozen. It is important for Stars and Party to notify the community of those accounts that have been caught cheating with weekly or monthly notices when you log in to their site.

[junglewarfare]

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I reeeealllly doubt Noah is sitting in his apartment in Amsterdam playing all 3 accounts.

This is why paranoic withchunts are dangerous.

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Oh yes, poor Noah, people ruining his reputation.

The guy is an self-admitted cheater, he was very, very lucky Stars didn't have the balls to do something when he won the Sunday tournament.

Give me a break

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I am very suprised that people are not more outraged at Stars over this. They [censored] this one up up pretty bad.

[LozColbert]

Lee --

You should take any money he has at PokerStars.

[jman220]

Does anyone know his account names at the other major poker sites? I'd like to see if Ultimatebet/ FT, etc. will follow suit on checking on him (assuming he plays there). Otherwise I guess we could just report him based on his real n ame.