when to call a habitual pusher - Page 2

samoleus · #11 04-23-2006, 12:13 AM

AZK, I think you make a number of salient points. However, I think that although I feel like my edge is generally bigger over the table than it would be calling with A-6 over some above average hand, I feel you have to look at the hand microscopically not macroscopically. In other words, (and since I am properly bankrolled) my decision should simply be: is it +EV to make this call or not. Passing this up for a higher EV later is shaky I think - especially because I run the (considerable) risk of someone else picking him off and stopping this nonsense before I get to.

You make a very very good point that my own tilt factor should be a big consideration. But I can honestly say that I almost never tilt. I am pretty good about thinking of poker as a long term thing, so I never get too worked up about bad beats. If I make good decisions, I am usually satisfied even if I lose a big pot. (the exception to that might be if I suffer several bad beats in close succession - but we can discuss that another time).

So that being said, I like your A8, 66 requirement.

TStoneMBD · #12 04-23-2006, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
my decision should simply be: is it +EV to make this call or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

youre entirely right about this, but my comment is righterer.

samoleus · #13 04-23-2006, 12:19 AM

outstanding post aejones! as for me, I thought I could loosen up even more. He had reraised me more than half the time I had opened, which led me to think that his reraising standards could be as weak as pockets, any aces, two broadway cards, medium king, and MAYBE even speculative hands like suited connectors.

I like your, lapokers, and AZK's requirements of around A-8/9 and 66. As for me, this was a real "feel" situation. This guy really hated playing against me and my style and was trying to put a stop to it. I felt that A6 was a favorite over his hand range a little more than half the time - so after taking my entire bank, I decided to make the call.

I was against K-9. Flop was a sick J-J-9. But poetic justice: turn and river were tens.

aggie · #14 04-23-2006, 12:19 AM

This sounds like a pokerstove numbers crunching question and i'm unwilling to do the work [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].....My guess is that he is reraising quite liberally but i would also guess that he's experiencing a better than average run of cards. I doubt he's doing this with complete air.

With that said my guess of +EV calling hands is AT+ and 77+ and possibly KQ. But this really comes down to what range you think he's doing this with. I fold the A-6. Obviously this all comes down to what his hand range is and i'm sure you can make a much better guess at that than I.

I think another great argument is whether or not you should tighten up your raising standards (a little). Obviously with him doing this you're in a fantastic situation but i'm not convinced that it wouldn't be more +EV to tighten up a little temporarily. He's not going to stop hating you just because you tighten up for a little while [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

samoleus · #15 04-23-2006, 12:20 AM

Tstone, I think you may be neglecting the fact that if I wait for a better situation, I might lose the opportunity when someone else picks him off.

samoleus · #16 04-23-2006, 12:23 AM

BluffThis, it is specifically because it is not a tournament situation and I had not seen any showdowns that I had to make a decision about whether or not it was plus EV. As for leaving the table, I think it would have been a bad idea for three reasons:

(1) I don't want to set a precedent where he (and perhaps others that observe this) can start doing this.

(2) despite the unpleasantness of him playing this way, it is clearly advantageous to have him at my table. While it increases variance dramatically, it also increases EV.

(3) I had run my starting stack of 2K to about 14K at the time and I did not want to lose the inherent advantages that having such a stack provided.

samoleus · #17 04-23-2006, 12:27 AM

Aggie, your first paragraph about him probably experiencing a better than average run of cards is a very very good point.

About tightening up, my fear was that if he noticed a perceptible tightening of my opening raising, I thought he might stop playing like this. And as you said, while somewhat irritating and unpleasant, it certainly IS a fantastic situation to be in.

Do you not think that if I noticeably raised my opening standards, he would in turn increase his pushing standards?

aggie · #18 04-23-2006, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But poetic justice: turn and river were tens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious....When this happened, did you type anything into the chatbox, and if so, what? I sure hope you needled him somehow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

aggie · #19 04-23-2006, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
About tightening up, my fear was that if he noticed a perceptible tightening of my opening raising, I thought he might stop playing like this. And as you said, while somewhat irritating and unpleasant, it certainly IS a fantastic situation to be in.

Do you not think that if I noticeably raised my opening standards, he would in turn increase his pushing standards?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really have no idea? YOu certainly may be right (probably are)....I just thought it was a good discussion point

samoleus · #20 04-23-2006, 12:31 AM

Haha - you are ruining my attempt at portraying myself as a gentleman. Yes indeed - comments about yet another mortgage payment followed!

Also, I started really annoying him by counting out loud every time he rebought. He had a 2K stack and had to rebuy a number of times. Full rebuys twice, but I counted even when he added 50 bucks to get it from 1950 to 2K. I kept saying "there's rebuy #7" etc ...

I had the whole table "lol-ing" at him. Was beautiful! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]