No pair... pot, make one pair... pot pot

[turnipmonster]

against an agressive player in position check calling flop is often better than betting w/AT, at least imo.

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It's possible, but not typical. I see people do stuff like this occasionally, and I've done it as well. (check call with very weak hands on the flop with an aggressive player in position with limited plans on seeing showdown)

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bad strategy, no?

Oh yeah and fold preflop.

[EverettKings]

J-strass

Pretend everything was the same but the turn was an offsuit 3 or something. Do you check behind? Obviously not every time, but if you don't give up at least a good amount, then you're making his line pretty profitable.

Also, I know you like this move a lot, but if you occassionally check behind made hands in spots like this, it might help set up for bets like this at other times. That, and if he gets the idea that you're making bets like this, people will (or should) start checking a lot of made hands to you to bet for them. Wouldn't it be sick if he flipped up AQ or something here?

[FGators]

I just need someone to write or point me to the direction of betting the river at the cash game level with deep stacks compared to when to check behind. I obviously know when to do it when I'm strongly confident in my hand and try to pull money out of the villain. I know when to bet the river when I've missed a draw or sense weakness in my opponent and try to blow him off his hand.

Why bet this river though, instead of checking behind? We COULD have the best hand but an ace calls us and I'm not sure if any middle pair does.

Mainly, how do we know its value betting....and why not check behind if we are not sure.

[bruce]

Good post.

How much to bet on the river and even if you should bet the river is pretty close IMHO. I think it boils down to how wacky your image is. If you have a loose reckless image I'd pot it.
Contrarily if your opponent is tight I'd probably check because if he calls he has to have a better kicker than yours. I can certainly envision a tight player checking the flop with AK, AJ, etc. and then check/call the hand down.

Bruce

[fired_fury]

i think this situation is very opponent specific.

if he did have a very big draw, would he really check call you the whole way? i feel like a c/r on the turn would be in order, or maybe he would just lead the flop strong...

its really just a question of will this guy call you down with qk or qj, kk, jj, 10s, 9s, 8s... and what range do you put him on pf raising to 80... if he does have something like jacks theres a very good chance he'll give it up on the turn

by the river he has to have missed draw, aq, ak, aj, a10, kk, qq, qk, qj... i personally would bet less on the river, you get no value out of a missed draw, make it very tough for qk qj and kk to call you, and pretty easy for the other group of hands to call you and take it down

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I think that with every subsequent PSB you put in the chances of villain sticking around with a worse hand get worse and worse. If he wasn't drawing or slowplaying, I think one of two things is likely: AK-type hands which are calling or (more likely given the flop action) KK/JJ-type hands which may not have believed you on the turn but now are more likely to believe you on the river.

I know you're aggressive and all that jazz but I think you're overrating how often JJ is going to just call off two straight PSBs with an ace on board (especially given the previous PSB before the ace hit). The lower you get on his spectrum of non-set pocket pairs, the less likely he is to call so I think that the chances of getting called by a worse hand are slim (in the case of KK/JJ) to none (in the case of 88 or 55).

I think he has a missed draw/two pair/a set/a pocket pair he's folding/AK-AJ much more often than he has (and calls with) 88-JJ/KK/A2-A5 so I don't bet this very often.

As for your bet on the turn "for value"-sure he's not necessarily pot-committed if he calls but he's still got to worry about playing OOP on the river in what is a big pot. Given that you're not exactly known for your small value bets and post-oak bluffs and you like to apply pressure he's going to have to make a tough decision for a lot of money if he calls the turn so you can't quite claim that his turn call can easily be a worse hand.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

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I can certainly envision a tight player checking the flop with AK, AJ, etc. and then check/call the hand down.

Bruce

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People really think it's not that uncommon for villain to c/call the flop (losing the lead in the hand OOP) with an unimproved AK/AJ? I think that this is pretty unlikely (though I still think villain's calling range on the river is predominantly better hands, I think it's because this is either a slowplay a missed draw or a hand that is hoping to go to showdown but ready to give up after so much pressure)

[FGators]

How long have you played with this guy? What has he shown down in a hand in which he raised? What was he flop action (a continuation bet?)

This would actually help me a lot more of what I would do on the river.

[amoeba]

why would he check call the flop with KK or JJ/TT or a Q?

and if he did hit the A on the turn with A better kicker, it makes no sense for him to value bet the river as he can't put you on an ace. Thus hes check calling river again

I think you paid off a better ace in this hand.