Sort of Theory Post

[HEK]

call is best since worse hands fold. It's really as simple as that. And no, don't raise any 2 here. It's not the right board for it.

Then again, if the action went check, you bet, call. Turn brick he bets then I like a raise against the right opponent.

[MDMA]

Raising here is very, very bad. There is no options here besides calling, it's as standard as standard gets, and you should never deviate from it.

For those saying this is a good spot to raise with any two, think again. This is a spot where you will raise with VERY few hands, pretty much not a single one except A8/A3, and not those ones all the time either. With sets you'll raise turn when he leads into you instead, since, for example, a lot of the time a flushdraw or a straightdraw has appeared, and your raise can be a draw as well, as opposed to raising this flop which pretty much narrows your hand into two. Or perhaps he's leading into you with an 8 or A(bad), you have 33, and an 8/A hits turn. Now you're probably gonna stack this player.

So, a raise with any two is very bad here since you'll either be on air or have a (badly played) monster. Either way, he's folding all worse hands than yours, and calling with all better. Then, how are you gonna proceed? Sure, you might say that "if I can always get people to fold weak aces etc when raising such a dry flop with any two since it narrows my hand into a monster, isn't that good?" Sure, until someone picks up on it and realizes you'll have one of those hands very rarely, and goes on 3-bet pushing you with air which you can never call. Or just the fact that when they do call you'll be in a large pot on turn with a weak hand and/or air.

Noop, raising here sucks, it's an autocall, nothing more to it.

Furthermore, someone said that if someone check/calls you on this flop and bets into you on a brick all of a sudden you should definately raise..I cannot disagree more. With that action, e.g check, check, you bet 100, first guy calls, turn is a deuce completing the rainbow and the guy bets 250ish into you, I'm probably just folding, I except him to fire river on any card any way and I can't call that. Either that or I'm calling and folding river, but I don't really like that too much either since he will most likely fire river making you fold. RAISING a turn like that is grouse. In this case it's a real brick, but if it came down with a flushdraw on turn or something, you'll have to call, since a very viable line with, say, for example an 78 suited would be call c/c flop and bet if turn brings the guy a flushdraw as well.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, someone said that if someone check/calls you on this flop and bets into you on a brick all of a sudden you should definately raise..I cannot disagree more. With that action, e.g check, check, you bet 100, first guy calls, turn is a deuce completing the rainbow and the guy bets 250ish into you, I'm probably just folding, I except him to fire river on any card any way and I can't call that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I make stop and goes like this all the time and this type of thinking is why I keep doing them (w/ air and once in a while a monster)

[fslexcduck]

to paraphrase a comment of yours, MDMA, "raising here with any 2 is bad because you often have air or you occasionally have a badly played monster." and later "he folds anything worse than AT to your raise."

sooooooo confuuuuuuuused.

[MDMA]

I explained my reasoning as well. It will against non-thinking players who will never pick up on what you are doing/not understand the fact that raising here signals a very very narrow range of hands. A thinking player will understand this very soon and adjust accordingly, and then you will be in a world of hurt. Or, he might just understand it right away and not believe you would (stupidly enough) fastplay a set like this and then you're in a world of hurt right away. Raising here has zero value, and excuse me, since english isn't my native language I sometimes sound confusing. I hope you can bear with me.

[fslexcduck]

waaah waaah waaah english isn't my native language so let me try to make people feel bad for saying they don't understand me. hey, stfu. i never said anything about your english so comments like that reallllllly get to me. all i said was you made two logically inconsistent statements, which is still true, and you've done nothing to refute that. it is impossible, when talking about the same opponent (in the current hand, not over a stretch of hands), to say raising any 2 is bad and they will not continue without a huge hand. that's all. your english is fine, don't be so self-deprecating. it's your logic that needs work, sir.

[MDMA]

Well, alright I'll rephrase. First of all I'm never talking about just the current hand, I find that sort of thinking to be wrong, it's like saying you dont have to push in certain situations with draws to get paid of with sets, when your current hand is a set and you're wondering how to play it, for example. Furthermore, alright, let's say it like this, raising with AT sucks (because of the obvious statement that worse hands fold and better hands call) and raising with any two (e.g air), in an isolated event, is better. And, against a non-thinking player I wouldn't mind it since you could probably repeat now and again without him thinking much about it, just folding his hand.

What I am saying is that a thinking player will understand that there is foolish to play a monster strong here, and will be very suspicious of your bet. I, for one, if I noted a raise in a scenario like this more than once from the same player wouldn't mind going on with air here, granted that the player has solid reasoning in a lot of other situations, making it likely that his raise is often a bluff. A maniac might raise AK for value here for example, and he's not gonna release his hand.

I don't know whether I'm able to explain this much further, it's just that a raise here has to be credible, and a raise here pretty much isn't, that's why I don't like it. That in addition to the fact that any real hands you have would be disastrous to raise because of the obvious better hands call/worse hands fold, which is pretty much why raising isn't credible in the first place.

I'm sorry you misunderstood me, I thought it was unclear at that point what was confusing, sorry if that got to you, no need to get aggravated is there?

[AdamBragar]

2 Questions for everyone who advocates a call on the flop.

1) What do you do if bet into again on the turn? I'd assume fold, right? If the turn goes check check and he bets 300 (or even 150) on the river, do you fold? Is the plan here to make this one call and hope to check it down?

2) What range of hands do you think someone would bet into you given that it's a non-draw heavy board? Is the type of player who bets into you with, let's say, AQ, the same type of player looking to play a big pot with AQ?

[AdamBragar]

[ QUOTE ]
Either way, he's folding all worse hands than yours, and calling with all better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you want to play a big pot oop with AQ, AJ here (I wouldn't even like playing a big pot with AK here)? So those are some key hands that I think might fold here given the raise.


The argument that a thinking player will pick up on your play seems like it could be true for any situation. Let's say your standard practice is to just call the flop but fold to a turn bet. If he realizes this, in any heads up pot, he will just fire two barrells against you. My guess, as a thinking player yourself, you'll adjust. That's why I said, barring any reads in this situation. Once this situation plays out a few times (which I'm guessing is unlikely unless you play a really long session with the same player and the same player continues the same strategy), you'd need to change your strategy too.

[creedofhubris]

Most players don't make weak leads like this. You have to figure out what it means from any individual player. There are some players who will fire when an ace flops on a dry board, figuring you'll have to lay down any hand that doesn't have an ace in it. (These are the same types of players who will lead at baby boards to get you to lay down AK.) If you're up against that guy, you want to raise the flop. If instead opponent is a stubborn donkey with something he doesn't want to lay down (pp, Ax, 8x), then your move is to raise the turn and rep the ace (which in fact you have), since raising the flop will not always push him out. Also, raising the turn with an ace protects the times you will bluff/rep the ace by calling a flop weak lead with air and betting/raising the turn. These concepts are more important for a shorthanded game, where both players will often miss the flop in a raised pot. This is full ring, so it's much more likely that one or both of you has an ace here.

Raising the flop will let you determine if he's a tricky player with a big hand (b/c he will come over the top and you will fold), and that's about it.

Call, reevaluate on turn.

P.S. not a great hand to raise with pre, but you know that