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#11
11-12-2005, 09:27 AM
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Re: Player Discussion
The hand that puts in the last raise before the flop is the hand that is best
that is the RULE when the hands are close in showdown value 
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#12
11-12-2005, 10:04 AM
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Re: Player Discussion
The AQ fold was (in almost all cases) a good one, as I'm sure you know.
I have to agree that JJ is a much better cash game hand because of the ability to make a set/full house which is much more profitable on the whole than a potential nut flush (not to mention it's much easier to make a set). Who cares if it's a virtual coinflip at showdown? Do you see AQ (or JJ for that matter) getting shown down a lot when all the money goes in preflop in a cash game when the stacks are 100xBB or more? If so, stay in that game... I feel like I'm missing something here. Ryan
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#13
11-12-2005, 11:22 AM
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Re: Player Discussion
Hypothetical hands. Each player has $1500 in front. AQs vs JJ. $5-10 blinds.
Hand 1 AQs raises UTG to $40. Re-raised by CO to $150. AQs calls. $315 pot. Flop Q 9 2r. AQs bets pot $300, pot is now $615 and CO goes AI for his $1350. AQs has $1050 to call $1965. Call? Hand 2 same pre-flop action but you're CO with JJ. Flop T 7 2r. UTG checks. JJ bets pot $300, pot is now $615 and UTG c/r's his $1350 AI. You have $1050 to call $1965. Call? These are both good flops for these hands but, based on position, action and hand strength, is the decision to call the same for both? P.S. - Checked the math 5 times and hope there's no typo's.
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#14
11-12-2005, 12:51 PM
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Re: Player Discussion
Hi Mason,
[ QUOTE ] My answer was that if someone was all-in, the jacks would be better, but if they each had chips left, which was the case here, the ace-queen suited was better. Well, no one understood what I was talking about. No wonder the games are good. [/ QUOTE ] Uh, slow down on the condescension, Boss--you're almost certainly wrong. In limit, your answer is correct. In NL, the Jacks are definitely better in deep stacked situations, and probably in all situations where both players have substantial chips left. Yours is a limit player's mistake: you are overvaluing the top pair-type hands that AQs can make; AQs will rarely be able to win a big pot, or stand up to much heat post-flop, while JJ will often be able to. I'll let others elaborate, but just realize that the set-flopping potential of JJ, and the frequency with which it'll be an overpair on the flop makes it much stronger than the top pair or combo draw AQs will sometimes flop.
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#17
11-12-2005, 01:27 PM
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Re: Player Discussion
youre only correct if they get quite a few chips in preflop, the player with an Ax is suited, and they arent deep enough that the JJ has huge implied odds on flopping a set
youre assuming the AQs will be able to bluff the JJ enough of the time to make up for an inferior hand, or flop a playable draw enough to push the JJ around i really havent seen any sort of mathematical equations for this sort of debated situation, and im sure the game theory decision tree would be quite complicated to sum up, im really getting irrate at the herd mindset on this board, yes mason is correct in many situations, even if not in the typical NL that most of us play, but MOST NL PLAYERS DONT PLAY LIKE WE DO OR IN GAMES LIKE WE PLAY IN
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#20
11-12-2005, 01:45 PM
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Re: Player Discussion
Um...between this post, your post in the O8 forum, and a few others lately, you are really smoking. Thanks, man!
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