deep stack live - Page 2

BluffTHIS! · #11 03-02-2006, 07:47 PM

I wouldn't call that flop either. But the fact that villain is a passive player, and even though he just made a minraise, means he has a better than average hand, and maybe a real big one since lots of players like him think they want 6 callers when they have AA.

As played, checkraising is a bad play, and check/calling lets him know you have a draw or a weak hand, and you still don't really know much about his and how it relates to the flop.

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw, but you don't know that he really has enough of a hand to call if you hit anyway. And since he minraised preflop, he is more likely to be a minraiser postflop, which gives you both a better read on his hand (and thus whether you can make something if you hit) and still doesn't price you off your draw. Plus if he actually has a big hand, then he might just incorrectly decide to slowplay, allowing you to bet a completed draw on the river and get raised by a worse hand.

creedofhubris · #12 03-02-2006, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize how deep these stacks are, AZK? pot is ~300 and the effective stack size is 3800. Does that influence your decision?

(IMO live guys never fold anything, there's plenty of room here to get paid, and we can call a pot bet with this draw, so I like check/call.)

AZK · #13 03-02-2006, 09:57 PM

my bad, i read it as 1500....yeah, check raise not a good idea...

Lyric · #14 03-02-2006, 10:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
5/10 nl with 20 bring in at turningstone...you have 4k and stacks range from 1.5-5k

you've been sitting at the table for about 45 minutes and have probably been too active

hero has J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the sb and tight UTG player limps for 20 with about 1500 behind; a not too active player min raises to 40 from mp with 4k behind; you call and utg limper calls

flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and utg check, mp bets 100, you call 100 and utg folds

turn A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

plans?

[/ QUOTE ]

The mini raise pre flop indicated that he's a weak player, and if he is generally tight he probably has a big pair or AK.

Unfortunately if you lead the turn you won't get any information. He probably won't fold any big pair against the turn lead and won't raise with AK or AA either if he's passive enough to mini raise from middle like that.

I think the best line is check call. You won't be giving away your hand to this weak player, and you can get maximum value from your hand on the river if you catch.

cero_z · #15 03-03-2006, 02:56 AM

Hi BluffThis,

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call that flop either. But the fact that villain is a passive player, and even though he just made a minraise, means he has a better than average hand, and maybe a real big one since lots of players like him think they want 6 callers when they have AA.

As played, checkraising is a bad play, and check/calling lets him know you have a draw or a weak hand, and you still don't really know much about his and how it relates to the flop.

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw, but you don't know that he really has enough of a hand to call if you hit anyway. And since he minraised preflop, he is more likely to be a minraiser postflop, which gives you both a better read on his hand (and thus whether you can make something if you hit) and still doesn't price you off your draw. Plus if he actually has a big hand, then he might just incorrectly decide to slowplay, allowing you to bet a completed draw on the river and get raised by a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.

otter · #16 03-03-2006, 03:05 AM

I don't think anyone could have said it better than this.

creedofhubris · #17 03-03-2006, 05:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]

So my play would be to lead the turn and see what he does. Maybe he doesn't like that A, and will now fold a pp that didn't hit a set. It is true that this risks being raised and having to fold a decent draw,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not gonna happen, they have $3800 behind and the pot is $300. Unless villain throws in a monstrous overbet, hero's going to be able to call.

BluffTHIS! · #18 03-03-2006, 06:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hero's going to be able to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is assuming hero can get paid if he hits. Players who won't pay off deny implied odds to those playing draws as long as they don't let themselves get bluffed off too often by the drawing player who then trys to steal when missing. Also you are assuming that the size of a raise won't be of the shutout variety.

durrrr · #19 03-03-2006, 08:19 AM

250$, c/c, or c/r

durrrr · #20 03-03-2006, 08:21 AM

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Unfortunately if you lead the turn you won't get any information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you need information? You have Jhigh, and 15 almost nut outs. If you miss your no good, if you hit your good (with the exception of the 2 board pairing clubs maybe). Not that i mind c/c here, but i do not think this is an adequate reason for it.