Arky Vaughan

[TheNoodleMan]

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I didn't know about him until I bought a Bill James Abstract.

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[KDawg]

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Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

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i disagree. i actually see schilling as a guy who will get TOO MUCH credit years down the road. the sock, winning the WS in boston, his mouth..no way hes forgotten.

i think a perfect example as a pitcher will be kevin brown, who will have about the same career worth as schilling with little to no fanfare.

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the thing is, there is tons of legend stuff like the bloody sock throughout the history of baseball, and do we know that kind of stuff now, not really. The bloody sock will go down like that, though it will probably be a bit more remembered because of it happening during the TV era of baseball. That being said though, we know all about it now because it's happened recently, I highly doubt that it will be all that talked about in 50 years except for boston fans. Hell, it's already been kind of stopped talked about by normal baseball fans

[New001]

Schilling was an important (and celebrated) part of two WS teams, including a very memorable 2001 series. Kevin Brown is a much much better example.

[wisehandpoker]

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Kevin Brown had one of the most insane peaks ever.

Another great example: Tris Speaker. How about Dick Allen?

If you want a modern day example, Gary Sheffield.

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Don't think I buy Speaker in this debate. He's constantly mentioned with Cobb, Mays, Mantle et al in greatest cf talks and has been in my 30 years as a ballfan. Little known fact; Speaker was the only known member of both the BBHOF and the KKK, but this is back when the Klan was basically a social club.

Here's a few others for you guys to check out:

Sam Crawford
Ed Walsh
Joe McGinnity
Old Hoss Radbourne (you'll like his '84 season)
Three-finger brown
Ed Walsh
Jack Chesbro
Heinie Manusch
Chuck Klein
Al Simmons
Gabby Hartnett
Rube Marguard ('Rube' was essentionally 'donkey' a century ago)
Sliding Billy Hamilton
Hugh Duffy
Tuck Turner (Look at his 1894 and realize he was his team's fourth outfielder. Then, look tat he other three.)
Kid Nichols
Ken Williams (The first 30-30 man by decades)
Smokey Joe Wood
Eddie Collins
Home Run Baker
Adie joss
Hal newhouser
Dazzy Vance (Note the age at which he started pitching)
babe Herman
Johnny Mize (HR/SO)
Tip O'Neill

Used to be I could have built this list off the top of my head. now, a quick look at the year by year ops/era leaders for each team suffices.

Those Pirates were a pretty good team. With Arky and the Waner brothers, they had three Hall of famers at their peaks and the end-of-career Pie Traynor made it four HOF's total.

[KDawg]

so was pepper martin in the thirties, do we still talk about him a lot, nope

[sublime]

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so was pepper martin in the thirties, do we still talk about him a lot, nope

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i think of the two brown sways to the under appreciated 25 years from now and CS the other way...this is a opinion based issue though so its not worth arguing over.

[andyfox]

Lloyd Waner might be the worst HOF pick ever. Paul Waner was a great player. Traynor was always overrated; he was considered the greatest third baseman ever long after Eddie Mathews retired. I doubt he's in the top ten.

Vaughn was always the odd man out. I used to pore over baseball stats and I have to admit that I, too, hadn't known about him until I read Bill James.

Side note: Will Bill James make the HOF? I hope so.

[sethypooh21]

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Lloyd Waner might be the worst HOF pick ever. Paul Waner was a great player. Traynor was always overrated; he was considered the greatest third baseman ever long after Eddie Mathews retired. I doubt he's in the top ten.

Vaughn was always the odd man out. I used to pore over baseball stats and I have to admit that I, too, hadn't known about him until I read Bill James.

Side note: Will Bill James make the HOF? I hope so.

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The Historical Baseball Abstract is like the best book ever. Didn't James make a pretty strong case that the best player of the 80s was Wade Boggs and the 90s was Craig Biggio? (Biggio is absolutely a guy who no one will talk about 50 years from now, btw.)

[Triumph36]

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Jim Bottomley and Heinie Manush are other excellent, forgotten, players who come to mind from this era. Subject should probably have its' own thread. Excellent example as far as Curt Schilling.

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Jim Bottomley wasn't that great when you consider his lack of power and the high average BA of that era.

Arky Vaughan was a much better player. I'm a total early era stats nerd so I know about he and Ross Barnes, but just how good he was, I couldn't've said that. Gabby Hartnett's 1935 was great as well.

[DVaut1]

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The Historical Baseball Abstract is like the best book ever. Didn't James make a pretty strong case that the best player of the 80s was Wade Boggs and the 90s was Craig Biggio? (Biggio is absolutely a guy who no one will talk about 50 years from now, btw.)

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No, IIRC James argued Bonds was far and away the best player of the 90s; he then claimed Biggio would probably be #2.

If this thread is morphing into a thread of under appreciated players, then I'd like to throw Rube Waddell's name into the hat. Yes, he's a HOFer -- so I don't want to claim he's been completely overlooked; and yes, he was the early 20th century's Dennis Rodman, so I don't doubt that his antics have cost him some measure of acclaim. IMO, though, he was a dominant pitcher -- probably the dominant pitcher of the era -- who's name never seems to be brought up when discussing the game's greats. It was the deadball era, no doubt -- so I won't trot out his ERA and other peripherals -- but I'm not sure there's even a modern comparable to this:

"Waddell led his league in strikeouts in every season from 1902 through 1907. During this six-year stretch, he had 1,576 strikeouts, while the aggregate total of all six runners-up was 1,180."

Waddell's ability to get hitters to swing and miss is especially impressive considering the dominant strategy of batters at the time was predicated around making contact, and striking out was a source of great embarrassment for a hitter.