25NL - QQ vs Suspected 2+2er - Page 2

dividius · #11 08-15-2007, 02:51 AM

It's wussy because, if our villain has a clue, they're gonna shove any turn card now. Look at the stacks and how big the pot is; I don't see how a flop call doesn't commit our hero. Might as well be the one doing the shoving or just get out of the way. I'm not saying I'm right, but that's what I'm thinking in that spot.

Lego05 · #12 08-15-2007, 02:53 AM

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Flat calling on the flop puts over 1/3 of hero's stack into the pot. If you're gonna put 1/3 of your stack in, then fold to a turn bet, why are you even playing? This looks like a clear shove or fold on the flop to me. If you're not planning to make a shove/fold decision after villain bets on the flop, then shove/fold pre-flop.

I just hate calling on the flop. It's the wussy way out; "I have a big overpair, so I can't fold, but he could have AA or KK, so I won't raise." AA, KK, JJ, and 1010 are all equally as likely. Pick a read and go with it. Call leaves you in no mans land.

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In my opinion against this opponent in this situation with the players in these positions TT is not as likely as AA. And he may fold TT if you shove flop whereas he will never fold AA/KK/AcKc. In my opinion it's just the smart play.

True that call may leave you in a tougher spot than shoving but sometimes tough spots happen and making a bad (or less than optimal) play to avoid it isn't a good idea.

Lego05 · #13 08-15-2007, 02:54 AM

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It's wussy because, if our villain has a clue, they're gonna shove any turn card now.

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That's not true at all IMO.

dividius · #14 08-15-2007, 03:01 AM

Maybe I'm giving the villain too much credit here, but you really think he's going to make that type of pre-flop raise, then that flop bet, and then just give up on the turn? I don't see that happening. In my mind, his flop bet is saying, "I'm pot-committed." That means it's our time to decide if we are too.

dividius · #15 08-15-2007, 03:06 AM

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And don't show the turn or river. We know he doesn't have AcKc now.

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Also, don't tell us that he called your all-in. That makes it a lot easier for me to say things like, "Our villain is clearly pot-committed." [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Edit: Seriously though, that $10 flop bet would tell me he is pot-committed. Honestly. I swear.

tarheeljks · #16 08-15-2007, 03:10 AM

that flop bet is called a cbet and they are ~175bb deep so it doesn't commit anyone. it's reasonable for the villain to cbet w/TT/JJ here and then check the turn

Hail Eris · #17 08-15-2007, 03:14 AM

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It's wussy because, if our villain has a clue, they're gonna shove any turn card now. Look at the stacks and how big the pot is; I don't see how a flop call doesn't commit our hero.

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When villain bets flop, he has TT+, AQo+. So we're ahead of villain's range on the flop, and we're not folding.

If we shove, villain folds his overs, his TT, and his JJ, and calls with his AA-KK; so we can't shove.

If we call and he bets the turn, we can probably safely fold. A nitty TAG double barrelling whiffed overs in a big 3bet pot for 170BB is virtually unheard of in 25NL. But even if we think he double barrells and we want to stack off, calling the flop and then calling his shove on the turn is obviously better than shoving the flop ourselves, because it's not like he's calling our shove on the flop with AK unimproved.

On the other hand, if he checks the turn, we can either shove then or check behind to get value from the TT-JJ that folds to a flop shove.

In conclusion: shoving and folding are both terrible; calling gets the monies.

dividius · #18 08-15-2007, 03:19 AM

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that flop bet is called a cbet and they are ~175bb deep so it doesn't commit anyone. it's reasonable for the villain to cbet w/TT/JJ here and then check the turn

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When your stack-to-pot ratio is less than 3, you need to make a commitment decision. I don't care how many BB deep you are.

dividius · #19 08-15-2007, 03:21 AM

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If we shove, villain folds his overs, his TT, and his JJ, and calls with his AA-KK; so we can't shove.

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What makes you so sure he's folding JJ and TT?

Hail Eris · #20 08-15-2007, 03:24 AM

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If we shove, villain folds his overs, his TT, and his JJ, and calls with his AA-KK; so we can't shove.

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What makes you so sure he's folding JJ and TT?

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13/11s don't stack off light in 3bet pots for 170BB at 25NL.