"One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed."

[FlFishOn]

" So we have William F Buckley on one side and Thomas Friedman on the other. "

I seem to have take a trip through the looking glass.

Also from NR's Hanson:

"It is an odd war, because the side that I think is losing garners all the press, whether by blowing up the great golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra, or blowing up an American each day. Yet we hear nothing of the other side that is ever so slowly, shrewdly undermining the enemy. "

If it bleeds, it leads. If it is at all unfavorable for America it will get huge world wide coverage. This may be the most difficult battle in the war to fight.

What I can discover from troops on the ground is not too well correlated with what I read in the press. They are mostly content to complete a mission that is progressing.

That said, I have my doubts. I honestly believe Islamic culture is incompatable with democracy. If it takes this war to prove the point then we have an expensive but powerful lesson.

[Cyrus]

The extent of reality denial in which the war's supporters can engage is indeed astonishing!

[ QUOTE ]
*GDP in Iraq has been growing 10% per year despite the oil production being lower than pre-war levels.

[/ QUOTE ]This is another way of saying "The United States' invasion knocked the GDP of Iraq to its lowest level in decades but it is growing back from that abyss by 10% per year". That's right, we are not impressed.

[ QUOTE ]
*14 of the 18 provinces of Iraq are peaceful.

[/ QUOTE ] Care to re-calculate this in terms of population, please, instead of geographical areas? This is not about the Electoral College in US presidential elections.

[ QUOTE ]
*We are finnaly getting some Iraqi units which will stand up to the insurgents instead of running away.

[/ QUOTE ] Bush recently claimed some nonsense about a hundred or more Iraqi battalions being battle-ready. I put a poll to the 2+2 readership and, wisely, the majority of respondents chose not to believe the president. They thought he was exaggerating, even though they did not know the real number themselves!

Want more about Dubya's credibility? Here's what Bush said on Nov. 4, 2004: "We are making good progress in training the Iraqi troops." That day, he predicted that "125,000 soldiers" would be trained by January 2005. So either the number of trained soldiers has decreased over the last year, or the administration has changed its definition of training!

Solid measurements of progress have also proved to be (let's say) elusive. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] In February 2004, Rumsfeld said that "there are over 210,000 Iraqis serving in the security forces." But in late 2005, Gen. George Casey Jr., who oversees U.S. forces in Iraq, told Congress that the number of Iraqi battalions capable of fighting independently of U.S. troops had dropped from three to one, and that only about 700 Iraqi soldiers were fully capable of fighting without any U.S. logistical support - a statistic that Rumsfeld now dismisses as "a red herring."

Another howler : In early December, 2005, in a speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, President Bush said some 45 Iraqi battalions —each with 750 men— are able to lead combat operations on their own. That means some 33,000 men. But a week earlier, on CNN, Gen. Dempsey, who runs the training effort, stated that about 23,000 Iraqis are battle-ready. That number only accounts for 30 battalions. Either 15 extra battalions graduated during Thanksgiving week, or there are different standards implied by Dempsey and Bush. Take your pick.

[ QUOTE ]
*The insurgents have been alienating the Iraqi population more than winning them over.

[/ QUOTE ] This is patently false. The insurgents are getting more organised, co-ordinated and bold in their actions. This shows that, if anything, their logistics must be improving. Also, their numbers. Both can only be the result of expanding support for the insurgency among Iraqis.

Is time on the insurgents' side or on the American side? Ask yourselves that. (A li'l tip: Which side is under an implicit timeline to giddy-up an' vamoose?)

[Pinky]

Quote: *14 of the 18 provinces of Iraq are peaceful.

Wow, what a great accomplishment! So in other words, 14 of 18 provinces aren't aren't in the midst of civil strife, daily bombings and headed for disaster.

[canis582]

Why are so many vets running as dems if the war is so hunky dory?

Why does ann coulter slander our vets? They know the truth.

"The troops like being away from their wives and children and buddies and bars" is a false meme.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Was the only purpose to call Elliot names("LIBERAL DEMOCRAT")? Very childish if that was the point.
************************************************** *****
LOL! If someone calls me a conservative republican, I'll puff out my chest and say you're damn RIGHT I AM. But liberals are ashamed to be known as liberals. They prefer names like 'progressive'. LOL! It is like a negro saying, 'I'm not black. I'm an African-American'. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

At least you have enough sense to be ashamed of being a liberal. My hat goes off to you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
*The insurgents have been alienting the Iraqi population more than winning them over. This attack on the mosque is the act of desparation and not strength. The next few days will be critical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this in part. I do think that normal Iraqis realize that this violence was incited by the Isalmic extremists, either homegrown or imported. They see Americans trying to build infastruture, and these other guys blow it up. They see their police and brothers blown up.

However, what is alarming is I think the recruiting of soliders whose loyalties at one time perhaps tended towards an Iraqi State, but now are willing to kill for Allah is growing. Out of despair breeds this sick fundamentalism. I hope it is, but this isn't a "act of desparation", ("last throes"?)...IMO...

I try not to have hatred, but the enemy is F-ing Sick Mother F-ers. "The next few days will be critical"...typical American thinking, these freaks will wait you out. Cyrus is right, TIME IS ON THEIR SIDE.

Stop thinking in terms of "well most Iraqis are for us..." One obessed, suicidal, 100% commited religious freak is worth 10 regular people. Whether its an election for your local School Board or war in Iraq, these religious fundamentalists are a powerful force. Google Karl Rove.

A wild-eye, mask wearing 20 yr old, building a roadside bomb, praying and fasting all day, with his 16 year old brother posting the bombing on the web both with the moral discipline to not even jack off to vigins in the afterlife since "we'll be there soon enough brother" vs 20 grieving mothers, old men and kind hearted shop keepers?

Buddha said, "Anger is never appeased with Anger, Anger is only appeased with Love.". Or "who would Jesus bomb?". After 9-11, we could have united the world, shown the 16 year old above, when he was 11, the prosperity of the West on the net, the friendship and support a united world, and the HEAD OF OSAMA. But no, Bush decided to shock and awe him to democracy. 2300 dead Americans 100000 dead Iraqis...tragic.

[andyfox]

He said "dumocrat." I think that qualifies as name-calling.

I see the smiley face, but the difference between calling oneself liberal or progressive is not the same as that between Negro, black, and African American. The latter reflects changing usage (my parents, who were quite liberal, used "colored" when I was growing up); politicians who call themselves progressive today are just recognizing which way the wind is blowing.

[FlFishOn]

"politicians who call themselves progressive today are just recognizing which way the wind is blowing. "

It's blowing straight from that stinking heap of liberal Democrat electorial defeat.

Stalin was a Progressive.

[ElliotR]

[ QUOTE ]
At least you have enough sense to be ashamed of being a liberal.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm...methinks that calling BCPVP a "liberal" is only slightly more nonsensical than calling WFB a "liberal". [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[BillUCF]

Anyone who admits victory or defeat in the Iraq/Terror War in this early stage is nieve. Look at world history. It takes at least a decade or more to come to a conclusion for such a clash of cultures this has become.

We are still in the first quarter of a tied football game.