two quick hands with pp

[mikeca]

Hand 1:
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Looks like a flop that should have missed everyone.


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It should have missed everyone, if they were playing well, but they aren’t. Don’t assume this missed everyone. There are lots of players that will play any Ax, Kx and the ‘x’ could pair the board here. Lots of players will play small connectors or one gapers, especially if they are suited. In a B&M 3/6 game with 6 or 8 people seeing the flop, I would never assume this flop missed everyone.

On the flop I think you need to check/call. The flop raise doesn’t make any sense in your position. If you don’t hit any of your outs on the turn, are you going to bet the turn?

Hand 2:

Middle pocket pairs are always tricky to play out of position. Absent some read on the player, this looks ok against a total unknown.

[getting better]

I can remove a couple hands from your list based on her raise. She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's. With everyone playing any ace I really weighted her hand to be A7 (and nothing on the turn or river contradicts this). I did forget to include a flush draw, but I never saw her on one which means she ~probably~ wouldn't raise that either; a combo draw would likely be seen as nothing more than a bonus to a flush draw but again not enough info to tell here so it should be included I suppose.

[ProfessorBen]

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She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's.

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A6 is a the lowest hand in a range I chose to cut off at. On an unknown, it's definitely within range. 99 or TT are standard preflop calls in MP for most 3/6 Live players. If you had further information that said otherwise, good for you, but that wasn't provided in the original post.

[getting better]

Absoulutely I wanted to check raise. Unfortunately I had attempted this 3 times in the session only to have my monster checked through and lose a ton of equity. While I certainly dont think I have a monster here, I didn't think the attempt would work and felt (incorrectly, sure) I had enough equity to put a bet in so didn't check it.

[KitCloudkicker]

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Absoulutely I wanted to check raise. Unfortunately I had attempted this 3 times in the session only to have my monster checked through and lose a ton of equity. While I certainly dont think I have a monster here, I didn't think the attempt would work and felt (incorrectly, sure) I had enough equity to put a bet in so didn't check it.

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so if you bet, and 5 people called, and the turn didnt give you a straight or trips, you're still betting?

why wouldnt you want this checked around when its likely you're still drawing? even if you're somehow ahead on the flop, you're going to lose anyways if you dont improve.

[mikeca]

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The reasoning behind 3 betting the flop in hand one is similar to why I'd raise a flop bet with a hand like 88 - I want to face the field with calling 2 bets. Since everyone has already called my first bet, simply calling the raise lets them carry on. Also, preflop and flop raises were not respected at the table, but three bets were. In 5 hours, I never saw a single cap on any street. Finally, even though I'm out of position, if an out doesn't come on the turn I can get a free card with very high probability against this player, and in fact most of the table had they called. While I figure there is a small chance of being ahead, the chance it holds up against 6 others by the river is zero.


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I agree that the chance 44 is best and will hold up unimproved is almost zero. You need to hit one of your 6 outs to win. The problem I see with the 3 bet is you are folding out the hands that have little chance of beating you if you hit one of your 6 outs. The hands that might beat your straight or set are not going to fold. Let them stay in and maybe they will pick up something and pay you off on the turn or river. You are only going to hit one of your 6 outs on the turn about 1 out of 8 times, so raising here is –EV.

[getting better]

If I 3 bet this, get called in more than one spot and dont improve, I check fold, BUT, it would only come to this if one of the other players did have the straight. I can tell you with 99% cetainty that the flop raiser dosen't have the straight, and is afraid enough of a checkraise that he wouldn't bet anything else after I show that strength. This was in effect a second reason for the 3 bet that is being overlooked. The norm is to raise for a free card when you have position, but against super-nits like this it does work out of position as well. Of course with this info, I should have realized that I didn't have 6 outs, but less. Yes, I caught the wrong one.

[getting better]

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She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's.

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A6 is a the lowest hand in a range I chose to cut off at. On an unknown, it's definitely within range. 99 or TT are standard preflop calls in MP for most 3/6 Live players. If you had further information that said otherwise, good for you, but that wasn't provided in the original post.

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Right, which is why I'm providing that now. While all these hands are in her ~playing~ range, based on her action at the time I played the hand I didn't consider them, and for reasons as stated. I somewhat agree that 99 is a limping hand for most and could be included if it could be discounted to some degree, but I haven't come across too many that dont put in a first raise with TT, unless they are in the blinds.