utg with 99 or any mid pair for that matter, how do u play this? - Page 2

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #11 07-05-2007, 10:12 AM

Bet 3200 to cover both the shorties...

Or if you want to gamble... limp, wait for one shorty to shove over you and then call or re-raise all in if anyone else gets in the pot.

sapsuckah · #12 07-05-2007, 11:01 AM

I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

rubenrtv · #13 07-05-2007, 11:11 AM

I'd raise to 3bb and call the pushes of the shorties obv. If one of the 3 10-12k stack pushes it depends on your read, but 99 will probably have a decent equity vs their range so I would probably call if they have not been really nitty. When one of the other big stacks comes over the top I fold my hand and move on.

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #14 07-05-2007, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like the advice then give some instead of covering all the bases.

You cover the shorties precisely so that you reduce the restealing when they come in. It's a bet of 4x the BB... maybe you prefer minraising...

registrar · #15 07-05-2007, 11:42 AM

Raise standard. Call SS shoves. Fold to raise from most other stacks, unless they are resteal happy.

Sherman · #16 07-05-2007, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise standard. Call SS shoves. Fold to raise from most other stacks, unless they are resteal happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

hamnegger · #17 07-05-2007, 12:18 PM

i said b4 id limp but i did not explain why. im on the bubble i will call shorties but not the bigger if they raise. this is a perfect way to vary play and set up limp reraise w monster (i don't use the play often usuall when ive set it up or aggro player is here) . im showing weakness now to possibly double up later.

Hontis · #18 07-05-2007, 12:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
so really, ur saying that raising a wide range of hands here is profitable bc of the antes, I just think if u get played back in any way 99 has no value here so u might as well be bumping up 23o
However i guess u might be able to get people off of better hands on giving flops, but u can do that with any two

[/ QUOTE ]

Sherman · #19 07-05-2007, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like a lot of the advice in this thread. I think with 23 BBs this is a standard raise with 99 (as Mingdu said). You can tolerate a call since you have a stack that can bust most of the table on the bubble, you've shown strength with an UTG raise, and you have a reasonable hand.

My only concern is that there are a couple stacks here that are the right size for restealing. If any of the 10k - 12k stacks decide to reraise-push over you, you'll have a decision to make. You can get away from it if someone repops without sacrificing a lot of tournament equity, but if you think they're smart/knowledgeable enough to just be making a resteal move, your 99 may play well against their range.

I don't think limping and playing for set value is terrible, but I don't think it's the best play. And raising enough to cover the small stacks is useless -- it's just putting more chips into the pot if you're gonna throw it away to a reraise-push. If any of the shorter stacks pushes over you, you're calling regardless (and they know that), so what's the use of making your inital raise cover them?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

If any of the big stacks shove over me, I am very happy making a fold. Capable of re-stealing against an UTG raise? LOL. If people want to "re-steal" against my UTG raising range, be my guest because they have just slightly > 0 FE against it.

sapsuckah · #20 07-05-2007, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the advice then give some instead of covering all the bases.

You cover the shorties precisely so that you reduce the restealing when they come in. It's a bet of 4x the BB... maybe you prefer minraising...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure where this came from, seeing as how I did give advice... and it was detailed and thorough. You don't need to make up stuff just because I disagree with you.

As for your rationale for raising the shortie's stack size, I don't get it, so please explain what you mean to me. Let's look at it both ways. A) You make a standard 3x raise, one of the shorties has a hand and they push. If it then folds to you, you call. But instead if a big stack repops, you can probably throw your hand away comfortably and you've lost only the 3x. B) You raise the amount of the shorties, one of the shorties (the one with about 4x in this case) calls for his stack. If it then folds to you, fine. But if one of the big stacks repops, you're in exactly the same spot as you were in (A) and will probably fold, but having lost more chips (and extra BB in this case).

If your argument is that the big stack is less likely to repop it if you make the bigger initial raise, I doubt that's true. I think they're only reraiseing with a very narrow range either way and I'd expect the ranges to be nearly identical. In fact, they may actually do it more often if you make a bigger initial raise because there's more dead money in the pot when they push to isolate on the short stack.

So I'm really not seeing the value of making a bigger raise than normal here. Again, if I'm missing something, please expalin it to me.

(And yes, I realize that the shortie's stack is only a little bigger than a standard 3x raise to being with so it's not a huge difference, but I'm looking at this from a theoretical/general point of view rather than this specific spot.)

Matt