One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many better cards to play - I would seldom get involved in a pot with these cards. You have to mix things up - so fine as a one shot, but I have a feeling this is a normal strategy for some of the responders here.

Usually, this is a fold p/f - after that, your chances of losing more money got worse on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] Run that hand against a couple of typical hands in an equity simulation. Run it heads up against A234, A3xx and some other hand that you'd consider raising there with. I think you'll be surprised. This hand actually does well short - the typical hands everyone loves A3xx etc. do well multi-way, but most of them not so well as this one short.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Run that hand against a couple of typical hands in an equity simulation. Run it heads up against A234, A3xx and some other hand that you'd consider raising there with. I think you'll be surprised. This hand actually does well short - the typical hands everyone loves A3xx etc. do well multi-way, but most of them not so well as this one short.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does well hot/cold in simulation but the game isn't played in simulation mode. All simulation hands are overvalued because they include results where the person playing the hand wouldn't have continued. For example you raise and BB calls and the flop is A37r and he has 234J vs. your KKT9. A good part of your "suprisingly well" equity comes from situations like this where in the simulation world KK9T makes it to showdown (and wins) but in the real world this hand isn't making it to showdown in many spots where it would have won.

[Buzz]

Howmany - I don't like this hand for one-on-one play, but having position against a blind who can be bullied seems worthwhile. Is the blind poster someone who can be bullied?

Seven players in the game and three have folded when the action gets to you in the cut-off seat. Is it possible to steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a big blind who can be bullied? If so, I like the raise. If not, the pre-flop raise with this hand seems ill advised.

I think you're a very slight favorite over a random hand. However, I think you're about a two to three under-dog against a hand with an ace. Will one of the three players behind you have an ace after three players in front of you have already folded? Impossible to know for sure but I'm guessing it's probably more likely than not.

Still, if a steal will work....

But then it doesn't and you're probably up against at least one opponent with an ace.

And then you miss the flop. Can you play this like Texas hold 'em and bully these guys out of the pot? Maybe a steal will work now.....

But then it doesn't and you're heads-up against probably a better hand, and stuck in the pot.

So you're risking four big bets to win less than a half big bet if you split (the most likely scenario) and you simply lose when your opponent beats you for high, as seems likely after this flop.

Not having any shot at low is one major shortcoming of this hand when heads-up. The other major shortcoming is you don't have an ace.

If you hit a king on the flop you're looking fairly good. However, the ten-nine combo sucks, and the king-nine or king-ten combos are worse. (Yeah, I see the straight flush possibilities, and you'll actually make a straight flush about one time out of a thousand, something like that).

What it boils down to is you don't have a very good starting hand, and when you do make something good with it you should want as many customers as possible.

Buzz

[Micturition Man]

I strongly feel the preflop raise is correct against reasonable opponents. The key here is the lateness of your position which should give you considerable steal equity and BTB equity.

On the flop against solid opponents you should just call the bet, basically because you are in fairly bad to bad shape and you can fold if a third low card comes if you keep the pot small.

The one time a raise is really nice is if the bettor has a high only hand that you beat and the third guy has a low that he will overcall with, but that's a rare parley.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
All unknown villains. Didn't feel like playing holdem and there were no good looking other games going so I figured I'd give learning Omaha 8 another try. Flop raise to get sb out yes? Turn call because of maybe best hand plus outs to scoop?

PokerStars 10/20 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with this hand is that, let's be perfectly honest, how often do you succesfully steal the blinds in LO8? I rarely ever try and steal the blinds- and when it appears that I am, i'm just raising for value, b/c I assume one or both of the blinds is going to be calling a huge % of the time, which, makes stealing nearly impossible. This is another reason why it's not incorrect to open limp the CO in LO8.

The problem with this hand is that it sucks. You flopped very mediocre, and there are 24 cards that effectively cut your pot odds in half on the turn. Granted you caught a decent turn card, but your hand is still one pair, and you're going to be putting in 2 BB's after calling this flop very often and usually end up either splitting or being scooped, and with a flop like this your scoop potential is nearly none almost always.

I'm mucking this hand preflop unless there's at least two limpers in front of me, in which case i'll limp along. Big pairs by themselves do not have a lot of value in LO8.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly feel the preflop raise is correct against reasonable opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]Micturation Man - Interesting. Why do you feel that way?

I think it would be correct to raise before the flop with this hand (or any hand) if doing so would steal the pot. I also think it would be correct to raise before the flop with this particular hand when doing so would get me one-on-one with a too-tight big blind who would give up (check/fold) on the second betting round whenever the flop didn't hit him exactly squarely.

But I agree with Tex that stealing is unlikely and I also think it unlikely to get one-on-one with a big blind who could then be bullied after a non-perfect flop.

The only reason I can think of that makes sense for raising with this hand is that raising will make it more difficult for your intelligent opponents to put you on cards when you raise at some later time with a hand that merits a raise. (Your stupid opponents are not able to put you on cards anyhow and are thus oblivious to the raise). You waste a bet with the raise here, but may collect later from someone who is befuddled by your later raise - but the "advertising" you get is probably not worth it, because you'll have to play the hand all the way to the showdown to be able to show your opponents what crap you're raising with.

In my humble opinion this hand is simply not a very good starting hand. Tex phrased it more elequently:[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this hand is that it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Buzz

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
Sure it does well hot/cold in simulation but the game isn't played in simulation mode. All simulation hands are overvalued because they include results where the person playing the hand wouldn't have continued. For example you raise and BB calls and the flop is A37r and he has 234J vs. your KKT9. A good part of your "suprisingly well" equity comes from situations like this where in the simulation world KK9T makes it to showdown (and wins) but in the real world this hand isn't making it to showdown in many spots where it would have won.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed - however, this hand + position has good value against players who are prone to folding without a favorable flop fit. (in fact, since hands run so close in value, just about any hand plays well against this sort of op) I guess what I'm suggesting is that against all but the pure calling stations just about any reasonable hand plus position should be considered - ruling out a hand in the right situation, because it's not an A2 or A3 hand isn't always the strongest play.

[hoppscot22]

folding this preflop in the CO is a mistake

[1MoreFish4U]

This is a very interesting discussion in that opinions are so far apart on it.

I think that it is more or les 'junk' that I would have no problem throwing away. If your goal is to try to find a way to win every pot, then of course it can be played - but why?

Part of my preference not to play it stems from the fact that I play on average 4 tables at a time so most of the time the hand would require too much direct concentration.

The thing is though, the hand is "trouble" from start to finish, unless you manage to flop a straight flush or quads, in which case you are unlikely to win a big pot.

In the majority of other situations you are either going to lose money, or scramble to get half of the pot.

Why bother with that?

[hoppscot22]

why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

you have position and a decent hand.

i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked, with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

stop being nits! gambol.