HELP

[omaha]

I absolutly hate the pf call, i used to do this, but not any more. You have called off 1/8th of your stack, and even if you hit, you will not win enough to make up for when you dont, because you are not deep enough

You mentioned that the table was passive, then someone utg raises to a large % of your stack.\

At least there was another caller in front of you, which is vvv good for sc and small pps.

The comment ' got a good price to flop something big' is not good. WIth sc and small pps, you want to get in cheap, with little likely hood of a raise, and some money behind to win when you hit (which is vvv rare). You didnt get in cheap, and there wasnt enough behind to win

On flop, this is a flop that has hit the utg raiser. He prolly had AA, KK, or Ak or AQ, and you have a flush draw.

If he had checked to you, then you could shove it, but I think you are behind, and need to just think about the pot odds. You have to call 6k to win 23k, plus some implied odds.

Just realised you have a st8fd, so yep, just shove the puppy

[betgo]

Yeh, the small lead from the UTG raiser is probably KK or maybe AA or AK. He really likes the flop and wants his money in. You have an open ended straight flush draw, and you are about even against those hands, so you push.

If the money was deeper, calling the raise preflop with position and JTs against two tight early position players who probably have big hands would be a great play. Here, the preflop call is probably not correct.

[Beachman42]

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but since players were passive before the flop, and there were a lot of limping i figured out that with the button likely to call after me i was getting a good price to flop something big.

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Calling with position and JTs in a live tournament with passive play is probably better than pushing or folding here. I would be concerned that the two early position players could have big hands though.

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EP RAISE & call isn't passive pf action! Also, we don't close the action with SB/BB left to act. Clear fold pf.

[halpgr]

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Pre-flop I fold. As played, on the flop, with the pot @ 13,500 (4x 3,000+1,500) plus 6,000 I smooth call and hope the button comes along.

You don't have any fold equity with a shove and your OESFD is way too strong to fold. I would just commit to the hand by calling the flop and getting the rest in on the turn.

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Your equity plummets on a blank turn. Also you may get no action if your draw lands and villians give you credit for what you have. Push the flop.

[BarryLyndon]

Preflop call is "meh," but to be honest with you, with the exception of Betgo, I feel, everyone here who says they fold J10s in this spot is probably lying [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Flop is standard push, and you know this (because why the [censored] are you calling with J10s if you're not pushing on this flop).

[Cornell Fiji]

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Pre-flop I fold. As played, on the flop, with the pot @ 13,500 (4x 3,000+1,500) plus 6,000 I smooth call and hope the button comes along.

You don't have any fold equity with a shove and your OESFD is way too strong to fold. I would just commit to the hand by calling the flop and getting the rest in on the turn.

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Your equity plummets on a blank turn. Also you may get no action if your draw lands and villians give you credit for what you have. Push the flop.

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I want to clarify your comment because this is a misconception that I see a lot on these boards:

In that regard would you say that your equity goes down when there is a blank turn and a blank river and you wind up with jack high?

Your ev actually increases when you do not lose any more chips on times when you would not hit a winning hand.

You push here because you have fold equity and because
you will not always get full value when a A/9/[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls.

You do not push here just because you are 57% to win the hand if the money went in now. Ideally if you knew that the turn and river would brick you would not want to put in any money at all because you do not have enough fold equity to make this shove worthwhile as a pure bluff. It is the fold equity and the fact that you will not get full value from your hand when it hits that make this a very standard flop shove.

(that said, this hand is really a simple preflop fold)

[BPA234]

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Pre-flop I fold. As played, on the flop, with the pot @ 13,500 (4x 3,000+1,500) plus 6,000 I smooth call and hope the button comes along.

You don't have any fold equity with a shove and your OESFD is way too strong to fold. I would just commit to the hand by calling the flop and getting the rest in on the turn.

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Your equity plummets on a blank turn. Also you may get no action if your draw lands and villians give you credit for what you have. Push the flop.

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I want to clarify your comment because this is a misconception that I see a lot on these boards:

In that regard would you say that your equity goes down when there is a blank turn and a blank river and you wind up with jack high?

Your ev actually increases when you do not lose any more chips on times when you would not hit a winning hand.

You push here because you have fold equity and because
you will not always get full value when a A/9/[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] falls.

You do not push here just because you are 57% to win the hand if the money went in now. Ideally if you knew that the turn and river would brick you would not want to put in any money at all because you do not have enough fold equity to make this shove worthwhile as a pure bluff. It is the fold equity and the fact that you will not get full value from your hand when it hits that make this a very standard flop shove.

(that said, this hand is really a simple preflop fold)

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This is a response to both quoted posts.

I would have to do the math and review the OP to re-verify the stack sizes. But, I don't think you have any FE with the original raiser after the flop bet. Since you are playing your draw without the benefit of FE, and since you can safely assume you are drawing to the nuts (A-high flush draw could be out there. Although, I think you have to completely discount that threat) then you should not push the flop.

The only thing that happens if you push the flop is that the button folds. You should just smooth call, offering the best odds possible to the button, building the pot and hopefully trapping the button into a three-way call fest.

[furfur]

fold preflop...rarely push(if loose raising standards for initial raiser). Post-flop is standard. Was this at Caesar's?