Reraise gone wrong

[Ansky]

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

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I am saying you should not say things like "we want him to fold." When he calls, chances are he is making a mistake.

[WarDekar]

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I am saying you should not say things like "we want him to fold." When he calls, chances are he is making a mistake.

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Calling could be a huge mistake but it could also be the correct play with QQ+. Plus he can easily have overs. I'm not sure what people are raising PF and calling your re-raise with here though, as I'd almost always be folding or pushing. I really am not sure what to put this guy on, maybe a lower PP. Actually the more I think about it I want to put him on a low PP.

And Bond, you say "we want him to fold" which is clearly not the correct play then. If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.

[Ansky]

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We make a large reraise because we're hoping to get him committed pre. With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.

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this is a pretty common mistake that ppl make. They are uncomfortable with awkward spots and therefore view them as -ev. If you reraise to 2k here and your opponent calls with a lot of his opening range, he is making a massively -ev mistake, provided you can play well enough post flop. Given that you have JJ tho and there will be roughly 1 pot sized bet left on the flop, it's pretty hard to play so bad that he can have an edge calling with most of his preflop range.

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Ansky i'm a little confused about your post. Are you saying what hes done is massively incorrect, my reasoning for the reraise is incorrect, or both?

In the hand I c/f'd the flop, does that change anything in terms of what raise we should be making if i'm willing to release?

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I think he was saying both of you were incorrect in your plays. I think, and I agree. He should've just shoved PF if he wanted to call your re-raise, and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with (or effective shove). As it stands you bet the 1 amount that makes this flop unplayable, and sacraficed 2000 chips by check-folding the flop.

You have to realize you're trying to make him make a mistake for you to gain EV. He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. What are you doing if this flop has Axx? Kxx? I'd like to hear what your plan is for a range of flops, because as you played this I think you're just donking off chips.

What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand.

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WarDekar,

It's nice that you are posting a lot here. There aren't that many active members of MTT anymore and the forum has been [censored] lately. However, you gotta be careful in what you say, as I have noticed much of what you are saying is complete bullshlt.

"What are you doing on a T-high flop? I just don't see you getting paid off by worse hands here post-flop, and if you aren't going to push the flop then you can't get him to fold a better hand."

I have no idea what you are saying here. You mean you think he will ever fold a better hand on a board like T35r? This is an amazing flop, and if you push it is DEFINITELY for value and will get called by a HUGE part of his range.

"and you should've either bet less to keep the pot small or shoved to begin with"

This is ridiculous. Why do you want to keep the pot small? We have JJ to a button raise, bombs away. Shoving is ridiculous because it is such a massive overbet that it makes the villain much less likely to make a mistake (ie, most players are much more likely to call 2k here w/ 88 or the like, rather than call a shove.)

"He may have made a mistake by calling your PF raise, but not if you're simply just going to check fold a scary flop with overs. "

There is nothing wrong w/ check folding versus certain villains here, it is very dependant on the exact flop and his timing and his bet size. If I checked and my opponent went all in on this board, there is a good chance I would call here w/ JJ. check folding does not make your pf reraise -ev by any means if check folding is the best play.

[Ansky]

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If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.


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Stop using fluff arguments. When I say fluff, I mean they are statement that sound like they have some semblence of logic or meaning, but in reality they are just retarded things that someone like Norman Chad would say. Every decision should be made to maximize ev, these statements are not in the correct direction.

[Bond18]

Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

[WarDekar]

Sorry Ansky, I'm posting more to try and get better so thanks for railing me.

I don't know what I'm trying to say here honestly. You are right trying to get him to make the mistake of calling here PF is good but what's his range for calling this re-raise PF?

You say villian is much more likely to call here with 88, well if he calls with 88 and you plan on check folding this flop, you made the mistake didn't you? I think a villian is just as likely to call a bigger raise with 88 as raising to 2k. I didn't say push, I said effectively put him all-in, there's a difference. Well I did say shove in the sentence you quoted, but I type fast and thoughts flow too freely sometimes. And also note that I did not say I would push this at all. I never ever would. My point was, Bond was quoted as saying "we want him to fold." Well if you want him to fold pre-flop, you should've just raised more pre-flop.

My goal is not to get him to fold pre-flop. My goal is to get more chips out of him. That's why I raise to 1600 or 1800. If he calls, we can still lead the flop and get away to a push. But he also has to put us on a pretty decent hand so that when we lead the flop he's folding a lot of hands we're probably beating.

EDIT: Sorry Bond, I was assuming you actually said that when Ansky quoted it, I guess you didn't.

And yes the point of every play is to maximize EV, I think my EV is maximized by raising to 1600 or 1800 and playing from there.

To Bond: As I said, if your goal was to commit him pre-flop, I think you should've raised a bit MORE. As it stands you're left in no-mans land on this flop.

[Ansky]

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Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

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sorry I was responding to this:
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With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.


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which i think is just kinda silly, but yeah, u didnt say we want him to fold.

[Bond18]

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If you want him to fold you want to raise enough that's committing him AIPF. Otherwise you want to raise small enough to keep the pot manageable post-flop.


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Stop using fluff arguments. When I say fluff, I mean they are statement that sound like they have some semblence of logic or meaning, but in reality they are just retarded things that someone like Norman Chad would say. Every decision should be made to maximize ev, these statements are not in the correct direction.

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LOL, ansky please don't take any more poker/2+2 vacations.

[WarDekar]

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Um, i don't beleive i said "we want him to fold" anywhere. I did say we don't want him to call, by which i meant we want him to commit his stack. Guess that wasn't as implied as i thought.

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sorry I was responding to this:
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With JJ we don't really want a call from him pre and then have to play the guessing game with an over card post flop OOP.


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which i think is just kinda silly, but yeah, u didnt say we want him to fold.

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Oh and I agree Ansky, that depending on the player I might be calling his push on the flop.

I'd like to know though, why you think raising to 1600 or 1800 PF is a bad idea? IMO it allows you to lead this flop and get away when you know you're beat. It also will extract some more chips from worse hands that are going to call you PF and fold to your flop bet, and possibly even get chips from a hand that's beating you on the flop.

[MLG]

war,
if we start with the assumption that the same range of hands will call 1600 as will call 2000, and we agree that that range of hands is behind JJ, then seems pretty simple to then say that in a situation with less than 30BB effective stacks the bet that gets him to commit more preflop with an inferior range is better than the one that gets him to commit less. Yes lots of flops are awkward, but being afraid of those flops hamstrings the value of your hand preflop and keeps you from really making the villain make as big a mistake as he is willing to.